What do you think of this?

[EA]

I reject the notion that God looks at the whole world of Christendom as some unaccountable blob of souls that are free to move from pastor to pastor and local assembly to local assembly.

That flies in the face of so many New Testament principles.

[SDG]

Originally Posted by Praxeas

yes you are right, clearly if someone is being immoral they are being unethical but the converse is not necessarily the same.

Yes but given the initial post it was not about the other person or church being unethical in the sense of "what am I going to do to them" like punishment, but rather one of "what am I going to do to protect the flock"

For me? I would not want a pastor that sees other churches, that are supposed to be our brethren, as active targets to fleece.

The church should be focusing on reaching lost souls and raising the new ones.

Grounds to disfellowship ... as Dano is also suggesting and inquiring about?

Part of his question.

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by TRFrance

Take a second look, Praxeas.
Eden said he/she would NOT call it unethical and immoral.

Wow....well. I take back what I said, but WOW...not unethical?

I wonder if it would be unethical of me to try to convince that persons friend to stop being his or her friend and be mine?

[SDG]

Originally Posted by Edward Anglin

I reject the notion that God looks at the whole world of Christendom as some unaccountable blob of souls that are free to move from pastor to pastor and local assembly to local assembly.

That flies in the face of so many New Testament principles.

Yeah, don't think that's being said either. But let's not put hyperbole past you....

[TRFrance]

Originally Posted by Praxeas

Wow....well. I take back what I said, but WOW...not unethical?

I wonder if it would be unethical of me to try to convince that persons friend to stop being his or her friend and be mine?

Well, I'm done beating this dead horse.

Good luck with that.

[EA]

Originally Posted by Edward Anglin

I reject the notion that God looks at the whole world of Christendom as some unaccountable blob of souls that are free to move from pastor to pastor and local assembly to local assembly.

That flies in the face of so many New Testament principles.

Originally Posted by Daniel Alicea

Yeah, don't think that's being said either. But let's not put hyperbole past you....

They are his sheep, but pastors are charged with feeding them. The idea that an individual can flit about, from church to church, on a whim is simply fruity. ANY pastor who would encourage such immature activity is dangerous.

For goodness sake, why can't people build God's kingdom instead of their own?

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by Daniel Alicea

Grounds to disfellowship ... as Dano is also suggesting and inquiring about?

Part of his question.

He didn't say disfellowship. It was not an act of disfellowshiping. Disfellowship is the act of bringing about corrective punishment to a wrong way saint. The scenero was about protecting the congregation from more attempts of the same.

This isn't a case where someone sinned and they are just disfellowshiping. This is a case where the one church actively tries to Divide the other and take it's members and the one church. This is a case of asking certain members who visit the other church to try to sow those seeds, to not return. Do you call that disfellowship? I don't...it's not the same purpose as disfellowship.

[SDG]

Originally Posted by Book 'em Dano

Is this some sort of growing trend? Aren't there enough sinners out there to reach without having to take a bunch from another church? I fully understand why a Pastor would no longer want to associate with the other churches despite them supposed to be brothers of the faith.

What do you think?

Originally Posted by Book 'em Dano

Exactly. You know it is pretty sad to see on this thread the attacks lobbed at any Pastor whose local church is the target of the active campaign of another church and pastor to approach those saints and convince them they shouldn't be in that church. That is division. The bible says avoid those that cause division.

Yet the voices railing against the UPC pastor and loss of tithes aren't doing so against the church and the pastor who conceivably will reap MORE tithes by absorbing saints from another church.

Why not focus on the lost? Why focus on some other Oneness church if we are all in the same body?

How healthy can a church be if they actively persue such an agenda? If you were a Pastor and there was a church across town with members calling your members and convincing them to leave your church and join theirs would you be ok with that? What if one member of your congregation rises up and gets half your church to go with him across town to start their own church, not on the pretense of spreading the gospel but because his church will be a better church. You, as a pastor, can't see the danger in that? You would not seek to prevent such sectarianism? The bible says to avoid those that do that.

I have to wonder if you that are trying ot turn this on the UPC pastor have ever been in a situation like this and if you did, did you continue to fellowship with that other church, bringing your people into contact with them?

I think Dano has made it pretty clear what the UPC pastor needs to do. Safe not to infer ... he's suggesting disfellowship?

[edjen01]

Originally Posted by Praxeas

no it does not. You obfuscated. The question was not "are you concerned about member of another church?"

The question is, is it unethical for members of another church to call members of YOUR church and try to convince them to change churches. Or for them to come to YOUR church service on the pretense they just want fellowship, then try to convince members to leave that church and join his church.

1) is it unethical?

2)if so would that congregation be a good congregation to be in?

3)if the pastor of that congregation allows such conduct is he being unethical?

4) If so, should the pastor of the targeted church try to keep the other church from causing division on his church?


Again you are obfuscating. The issue is not the members of another church and whether or not they are being fed.


Again the issue is not what THEY chose to do. The issue is the congregation they are targeting


Not the issue.

Should you be concerned that another church in town is actively trying to divide your congregation? Actively trying to take saints OUT of your congregation to fill their own congregation, not because they view them as lost souls as they are doctrinally the same. Do you think such a church would be a healthy place for YOUR saints to be in? Would you not be concerned that another church is trying to convince the saints under your pastorship away? When there is a whole city of lost souls to win?

See the issue is the saints you pastor, but yes you DO need to determine if such a church across town is a healthy church to be in for YOUR saints.

1. i think i covered this in another post...but "NO". I would not practice or promote it...but I cannot make a blanket statement regarding what others may think they are suppose or entitled to do.

2. since i don't call it "unethical"...then I will not comment.

3. now you are asking me to judge another's servant...and I will not do this. He will answer to God for his teaching and practices.

4. i do not consider someone trying to get people in my church to go to another church a "division". this may be where we are speaking different languages. if someone chooses to leave my church...for whatever reason...why would I consider that division and not that God has something better for them? i do not consider this division.

Should you be concerned that another church in town is actively trying to divide your congregation? Actively trying to take saints OUT of your congregation to fill their own congregation, not because they view them as lost souls as they are doctrinally the same.{No. the other church is not my concern. if people choose to leave because they think another church is better...doctinally...better music...better whatever...why would i want them to stay? or try to guilt them into staying? trust that God will work all things for the good.} Do you think such a church would be a healthy place for YOUR saints to be in?{if they leave the place where I minister then they are not my concern. they are not my saints...they are His. He lets me feed, love, and care for them while they are at this time and place in thier journey. this does not make them mine. and when/if they choose to leave...i will trust that God will lead them on to bigger and better things.} Would you not be concerned that another church is trying to convince the saints under your pastorship away?{NO. i do not concern myself with other churches. if I have taught the Word with love...then I trust that the Spirit of Truth will help those in question make the right choice.} When there is a whole city of lost souls to win?

I hope I have answered all the questions this time.

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by Edward Anglin

I reject the notion that God looks at the whole world of Christendom as some unaccountable blob of souls that are free to move from pastor to pastor and local assembly to local assembly.

That flies in the face of so many New Testament principles.

I don't think there is a huge problem with a saint or their family changing churches if need be. Of course the first post is about another issue altogether.

However I stress the "need be" part. A church is a local congregation and it is a family and it has a pastor. People that change churches a lot have no accountability really. And I think that their goal is self oriented where as our goal should be about serving Him and ministering to others. And for some once they get into changing churches it becomes more and more easier and church becomes nothing more than a club.


American society is rife with that. Men and Women change spouses the same way no. There are no commitments that are real anymore. Athelets change teams like someone changes socks every day (I hope) for the money. It was pretty rare not too long ago.