The Gospel of Measurements

[Charnock]

Historically, AFF has beeen a place to discuss the role standards play in the life of Pentecostals with specific emphasis directed to their influence upon our eternal destinations.

The Wesleyan Holiness movement, from which we emerged, has always been big on visible measurements. Everyone knows someone who believes we will be saved or damned based upon the clothes we wear. Other damnable actions extend to visuals like makeup and hairstyles.

But the Apostolic movement is separate from the large majority of Wesleyans in that its soteriology is based upon measurements, too.

It is rare to hear a sermon that mentions the need to call on the Lord or believe on Him for salvation. Rarer still to hear a Oneness speaker rejoice at anyone's initial expression of faith.

When I point this out all Apostolic preachers and saints state "Of course we believe faith is essential." While this may be true, the movement emphasizes everything else but faith.

Baptisms are trumpeted. Those who speak in tongues are congratulated. So why don't we rejoice when someone moves from doubt to belief?

I believe its because the movement preaches a gospel of measurements. Baptisms are visible, as is tongue-talking, but you and I can not measure a person's faith. And if we can't somehow prove it, it's not worthy of mention.

This is the classic battle of works vs. faith. Relying on our own actons rather than trusting God. Unfortunately, those who dismiss the faith experience are guilty of pulling up good wheat with tares.

[bbyrd009]

I heard a great argument for why soccer will never
be big in the US--no statistics--that resonates with this.

[johnny44]

Originally Posted by Charnock

Historically, AFF has beeen a place to discuss the role standards play in the life of Pentecostals with specific emphasis directed to their influence upon our eternal destinations.

The Wesleyan Holiness movement, from which we emerged, has always been big on visible measurements. Everyone knows someone who believes we will be saved or damned based upon the clothes we wear. Other damnable actions extend to visuals like makeup and hairstyles.

But the Apostolic movement is separate from the large majority of Wesleyans in that its soteriology is based upon measurements, too.

It is rare to hear a sermon that mentions the need to call on the Lord or believe on Him for salvation. Rarer still to hear a Oneness speaker rejoice at anyone's initial expression of faith.

When I point this out all Apostolic preachers and saints state "Of course we believe faith is essential." While this may be true, the movement emphasizes everything else but faith.

(Baptisms are trumpeted). Those who speak in tongues are congratulated. So why don't we rejoice when someone moves from doubt to belief?

I believe its because the movement preaches a gospel of measurements. Baptisms are visible, as is tongue-talking, but you and I can not measure a person's faith. And if we can't somehow prove it, it's not worthy of mention.

This is the classic battle of works vs. faith. Relying on our own actons rather than trusting God. Unfortunately, those who dismiss the faith experience are guilty of pulling up good wheat with tares.

Yes what was Paul thinking about telling John's disciples to get baptized again .

[returnman]

Originally Posted by johnny44

Yes what was Paul thinking about telling John's disciples to get baptized again .

This statement misses the point. There was a lot of "great joy" in the cities where there were believers as I recall. My observation for almost three decades confer's with this thread. I don't think Charnock is dismissing baptism. Or what about all the hysteria when some miserable soul mumbled enough unintangible's and the crowd would go besirk. I saw this happen once and the poor old homosexual went straight back to his sin.

[mizpeh]

Originally Posted by bbyrd009

I heard a great argument for why soccer will never
be big in the US-

I read just the opposite today.

[Michael The Disciple]

This works both ways. I certainly rejoice when one comes to faith. That is the beginning. Yet it is not the full new birth. Ideally we will rejoice all the way through with the convert. When they believe, are baptized, and filled with the Holy Ghost whether it happens in the same our or over a long time.

Most of the Christian world are happy when one believes yet make water baptism an option, something they need not even do if they choose not to. Most of that same group relagates receiving the Holy Ghost to just your initial belief in Christ.

[Michael The Disciple]

Speaking of measurements lets try this one on for size:

11And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;12For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:13Till we all comein the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:14That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro , and carried about withevery wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness , whereby they lie in wait to deceive;15But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ: Eph. 4:11-15

We hear very little teaching on measuring up to the fullness of Christ!

[Charnock]

Originally Posted by returnman

This statement misses the point. There was a lot of "great joy" in the cities where there were believers as I recall. My observation for almost three decades confer's with this thread. I don't think Charnock is dismissing baptism. Or what about all the hysteria when some miserable soul mumbled enough unintangible's and the crowd would go besirk. I saw this happen once and the poor old homosexual went straight back to his sin.

Nice response.

Consider: When we hear something (anything) we immediately begin a filtering process to determine whether or not we will receive what is said. When that filtering process leads to belief, over time our actions change to reflect that belief. If we reject what is said, we continue on living and acting as we did previously.

Think of how this relates to Apostolics.

If, when people are first brought into this culture, they are spoon fed repentance, baptism and tongues as the key to admission there will automatically be a higher value placed upon those three steps than belief (faith). If obedience to standards are preached as the means by which we hang on to salvation there will be more of an emphasis on standards than belief.

Now let's remove the "if" because this (^) is what is preached. No one is saved without repentance, baptism and tongues. These are the three steps Apostolics never fail to mention and Acts 2:38 is what is used to validate this soteriology. Further, no one can stay saved 'without holiness (standards)."

These things are all very visual and measurable.

But notice something missing?

Faith is rarely mentioned. It is dismissed as "Baptist." In fact, I would surmise that the UPCI's motto "The Whole Gospel to the Whole World" has a direct negative correlation to the notion that faith justifies.

So the movement mirrors an absence of faith preaching. Conference and camp preaching rallies the base around measurements rather than saving faith. How many were baptized? How many will raise their hand, thumb up, to signify they've received tongues? And then we hear the pride in a pastor's voice as he shares that "The new one is conforming to standards without anyone saying anything to her about them."

Measurements.

Some Apostolics trust their processes more than their God.

I posit the possibility that someone can be baptized without faith, and speak in tongues without faith, and follow standards without faith.

Visual measurements can be false...but faith can't be faked.

You either believe or you doubt. Only God knows if faith is in your heart.

"And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him." Hebrews 11:6

[johnny44]

Originally Posted by Charnock

Nice response.

Consider: When we hear something (anything) we immediately begin a filtering process to determine whether or not we will receive what is said. When that filtering process leads to belief, over time our actions change to reflect that belief. If we reject what is said, we continue on living and acting as we did previously.

Think of how this relates to Apostolics.

If, when people are first brought into this culture, they are spoon fed repentance, baptism and tongues as the key to admission there will automatically be a higher value placed upon those three steps than belief (faith). If obedience to standards are preached as the means by which we hang on to salvation there will be more of an emphasis on standards than belief.

Now let's remove the "if" because this (^) is what is preached. No one is saved without repentance, baptism and tongues. These are the three steps Apostolics never fail to mention and Acts 2:38 is what is used to validate this soteriology. Further, no one can stay saved 'without holiness (standards)."

These things are all very visual and measurable.

But notice something missing?

Faith is rarely mentioned. It is dismissed as "Baptist." In fact, I would surmise that the UPCI's motto "The Whole Gospel to the Whole World" has a direct negative correlation to the notion that faith justifies.

So the movement mirrors an absence of faith preaching. Conference and camp preaching rallies the base around measurements rather than saving faith. How many were baptized? How many will raise their hand, thumb up, to signify they've received tongues? And then we hear the pride in a pastor's voice as he shares that "The new one is conforming to standards without anyone saying anything to her about them."

Measurements.

Some Apostolics trust their processes more than their God.

I posit the possibility that someone can be baptized without faith, and speak in tongues without faith, and follow standards without faith.

Visual measurements can be false...but faith can't be faked.

You either believe or you doubt. Only God knows if faith is in your heart.

"And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him." Hebrews 11:6

Yes you have to have faith in Jesus who said he that believes and is baptized shall be saved. Cornielius was rewarded for seeking God and was told to send for Peter who commanded him to be baptize.

[Nitehawk013]

Well...I reckon by the position of this post we should get all giddy when an alcoholic or sexual abuser says they intend to change rather than when they actually change?

I like hearing of people comign to faith and believing in Jesus. Thats great. UNtil they repent, get baptized and are filled with the HOly Ghost though...it's empty faith. Faith without doing as the book says is useless in cases where they can clearly respond to the word.