Tulsa Report Day 2

[Hoovie]

Originally Posted by Sarah

Well, I've been reading this post for over an hour!

Pelathais, if you had not missread Steadfast's post, we wouldn't even be having this conversation. I knew exactly what he was saying, the first time I read it.

If you think for one minute that we are not having trouble with some of our young people 'experimenting' with alcohol and fornication, think again. It seems rampant in some areas. Sad, but true.
Nice to see you defending the UPCI! Why the change of heart? Glad to see it.........

but, but... Sarah, No one disputes that! The question is whether the activity is condoned by UPC (and now someone says ex-upc) pastors.

[pelathais]

Originally Posted by Sarah

Well, I've been reading this post for over an hour!

Pelathais, if you had not missread Steadfast's post, we wouldn't even be having this conversation. I knew exactly what he was saying, the first time I read it.

If you think for one minute that we are not having trouble with some of our young people 'experimenting' with alcohol and fornication, think again. It seems rampant in some areas. Sad, but true.

Nice to see you defending the UPCI! Why the change of heart? Glad to see it.........

Thank you Sarah. And no, I don't feel that I "misread" his post. The alcohol and fornication that you mention is sadly a problem everywhere, and from what I have been able to determine, it's been a problem at least since the days that the apostles' wrote about it.

What I objected to was the inference that these things are openly tolerated. The idea that a pastor was using someone on the platform who was "shacking up with young men" and such. This was given as an example of the things that cause the Tulsa men to feel "almost pushed out" about.

As far as a "change of heart" maybe you're just getting to know me better. I have criticized the UPC and probably will continue to have opinions about them for a long time to come. However, from my perspective, the cases of "tolerating sin" have always been isolated cases and kept under wraps by those at the local level. In just about every case such as this, the real victim ended up being the UPC itself. I have advocated speaking out about these cases.

I have also confessed the hurt that I brought to my own DS many years ago when I simply walked away and kept silent about an issue. At the time I thought that I was doing what I was "supposed" to do. Speaking up would have caused a real mess in a local church. As it was, the mess was found out any way; but by not trusting my DS I made his job a lot harder.

To my knowledge there has never been any district wide "conspiracy" to support or promote those enmired in sin, or even cases of young people living in sin leaving one church to go and minister on the platform of another "without ever backsliding" and where this was supported by a pastor. I simply question whether that happened. Did the pastor really know about it? Or is this just a dispute between two preachers about punishment and restoration? Tarring the UPC over such a dispute is wrong, in my view.

There has been and also will be a healthy debate about restoration and punishment, but I have never seen the org. as a whole commit itself to promoting sin. I'm willing to be surprised by any evidence to the contrary, but until then I remain skeptical about it based upon my experience in working at just about every level of the UPC, both within districts and at WEC.

They're not perfect. But they won't knowingly put up with sin either.

[George]

Originally Posted by RevBuddy

Praise the Lord!

With every head bowed and every eye closed, I know there are those among us who really need the wonderful gift of the Holy Ghost and there are others who want to draw nearer to the Lord and establish a more intimate relationship with Him.

Just put your hand on your computer - the Lord will make it REAL time - you can take this day...this hour...and this moment to recommit yourself to His purpose and calling...

Each and every one of you has enjoyed the blessing and fellowship of His perfect forum or fora...and now is the acceptable time...now is the time to take that first step...now is the time to move from just entering, deleting, escaping or paging down...now is the time to move out from behind the protection of your keyboard...and move to the altar of commitment and acceptance...

Now, singing, "Have thine own way Lord" (times 26)...

If you have been moved by this entreaty...just lift your hand right now...with every head bowed and every eye closed... "Thank you, brother," "Thank you, sister" Many, many hands being raised across the www... Let's all come forward at this time...

Now singing, "Can't nobody do me like Jesus" (times 54)...

transitioning from "Can't Nobody" to

"Comin' down, down, down, coming down, down, down,
this thread needs to come down.....
(now with a growl in the voice)
comin' DOWN, DOWN, DOWN, DOWN, DOWN, DOWN, DOWN....I said DOWN...LAWD HELP US.......DOWWWWWWWWNNNNNNNNNNNNNN...
oops, got carried away in the spirit.

RevBuddy, my heart is feeling heavy. Those that didn't surrender just might get serious carpal tunnel if they continue to use their keypad for war. If I was them, I would be afraid to walk..I mean stroke away from the altar.

[pelathais]

Originally Posted by RevBuddy

Well, we're still HERE....and holding....

whistle....whistle....whistle....whistle....whistl e....

I find it to be a common occurrence for people to make broad and sweeping accusations against their brothers and sisters in order to affirm their own fidelity to their standards of holiness.

A mere profession of such fidelity is seldom seen as being enough. No, you must also allude to the terrible conditions of compromise and sin that surrounds and threatens to engulf your godly labors. And the worse the sin that threatens to engulf you, the more sincere and godly you appear to be in the sympathetic eyes of those who also are beguiled by the threat of false brethren and their toleration of "shacking up" and such.

One unfortunate consequence of this tactic is that your neighbors are labeled in the worst sorts of ways. But then again, this does free you from responsibility for being neighborly, so perhaps the infamy you have given your brothers will keep them from asking to borrow your amplifier and prevent other such intrustions upon your blessed and chaste isolationism.

Also, it's always a great spirit booster to stand against that backslidden neice of the pastor down the road who wore a short skirt to a youth meeting after she finally caved in to her family's pleas to come to church. Whether or not the harlot prayed through as she so desperately needed is of little concern. You now have fodder for the next preacher-get-together and can confidently assure the brethren that the pastor involved has truly lost his way and surrendered all standards of holiness.

Another benefit is that you won't have to pack up the young people to take to any more of "those" youth meetings. You can spend the evenings more profitably engaged in online condemnation of the compromisers who have forced you to sit alone in your darkened study; the dim light of the monitor being your own beacon of hope.

So, sadly, here we will always be holding. The hardest thing for any of us to do is to confront the long and stubbornly held methods of conduct among our brothers. We have misused their reputations for years to build ourselves up. To fess up now would involve tearing down at least some of which we have labored to build.

Of course if we all fessed up at once, then the act of tearing ourselves down might be offset by our brothers building us back up again. But then that would mean fellowshipping with those we betrayed.

[RevBuddy]

Originally Posted by pelathais

I find it to be a common occurrence for people to make broad and sweeping accusations against their brothers and sisters in order to affirm their own fidelity to their standards of holiness.

A mere profession of such fidelity is seldom seen as being enough. No, you must also allude to the terrible conditions of compromise and sin that surrounds and threatens to engulf your godly labors. And the worse the sin that threatens to engulf you, the more sincere and godly you appear to be in the sympathetic eyes of those who also are beguiled by the threat of false brethren and their toleration of "shacking up" and such.

One unfortunate consequence of this tactic is that your neighbors are labeled in the worst sorts of ways. But then again, this does free you from responsibility for being neighborly, so perhaps the infamy you have given your brothers will keep them from asking to borrow your amplifier and prevent other such intrustions upon your blessed and chaste isolationism.

Also, it's always a great spirit booster to stand against that backslidden neice of the pastor down the road who wore a short skirt to a youth meeting after she finally caved in to her family's pleas to come to church. Whether or not the harlot prayed through as she so desperately needed is of little concern. You now have fodder for the next preacher-get-together and can confidently assure the brethren that the pastor involved has truly lost his way and surrendered all standards of holiness.

Another benefit is that you won't have to pack up the young people to take to any more of "those" youth meetings. You can spend the evenings more profitably engaged in online condemnation of the compromisers who have forced you to sit alone in your darkened study; the dim light of the monitor being your own beacon of hope.

So, sadly, here we will always be holding. The hardest thing for any of us to do is to confront the long and stubbornly held methods of conduct among our brothers. We have misused their reputations for years to build ourselves up. To fess up now would involve tearing down at least some of which we have labored to build.

Of course if we all fessed up at once, then the act of tearing ourselves down might be offset by our brothers building us back up again. But then that would mean fellowshipping with those we betrayed.

What can I say to this??? I'm standing and applauding...

but I also...

[RevBuddy]

Hey, Everybody!

Let's move this discussion out of Tulsa Day 2....whadda ya say??? Let's start a new thread called, "Tulsa Tangle."

[Apprehended]

As one who is given to strong passion of what I believe, but willing to change that belief in an instant on my road to Damascus, I now believe it is about time to drop this and go on to another subject. There are more profitible discussion going on...or at least some can be started that would benefit all.

[freeatlast]

Originally Posted by Apprehended

As one who is given to strong passion of what I believe, but willing to change that belief in an instant on my road to Damascus, I now believe it is about time to drop this and go on to another subject. There are more profitible discussion going on...or at least some can be started that would benefit all.

A hearty AMEN form me...this is my second and last comment on this thread.

I love all the players involved in this back and forth banter....and it hurts a little to read the posting of the last few days.


I've killed a few other threads in my days by posting on them...maybe I'll get lucky here again on this thread.

May it rest in peace.

[pelathais]

Originally Posted by freeatlast

A hearty AMEN form me...this is my second and last comment on this thread.

I love all the players involved in this back and forth banter....and it hurts a little to read the posting of the last few days.


I've killed a few other threads in my days by posting on them...maybe I'll get lucky here again on this thread.

May it rest in peace.

We are all free to come and go as we please. No one likes to sit around for too long looking at the same train wreck.

However, an accusation still stands that the WPF men are justified in their actions and in feeling "almost pushed out" because of the toleration of "shacking up with young men" and "social drinking" that goes on in the Texas District of the UPC.

Some people would benefit if everyone just walked away and left that smear to stand. I'm not walking away this time.

As I have said before, there was a time when I truly feel that I failed as a minister because I followed the code of silence. People were hurt by my silence and because I simply walked away. I'm sure I have more lessons to learn, at least I hope so. So let's see if a change in my own behavior doesn't produce some better result than what I have produced in the past.

[Apprehended]

Originally Posted by Apprehended

As one who is given to strong passion of what I believe, but willing to change that belief in an instant on my road to Damascus, I now believe it is about time to drop this and go on to another subject. There are more profitible discussion going on...or at least some can be started that would benefit all.

Bump...