Tulsa Report Day 2

[RevBuddy]

Well, we're still HERE....and holding....

whistle....whistle....whistle....whistle....whistl e....

[RevBuddy]

Hey, Everybody!

Let's move this discussion out of Tulsa Day 2....whadda ya say??? Let's start a new thread called, "Tulsa Tangle."

[George]

Originally Posted by RevBuddy

Well, we're still HERE....and holding....

whistle....whistle....whistle....whistle....whistl e....

RevBuddy, I already sang two songs. You wanna do the altar call?

[pelathais]

Originally Posted by RevBuddy

Well, we're still HERE....and holding....

whistle....whistle....whistle....whistle....whistl e....

I find it to be a common occurrence for people to make broad and sweeping accusations against their brothers and sisters in order to affirm their own fidelity to their standards of holiness.

A mere profession of such fidelity is seldom seen as being enough. No, you must also allude to the terrible conditions of compromise and sin that surrounds and threatens to engulf your godly labors. And the worse the sin that threatens to engulf you, the more sincere and godly you appear to be in the sympathetic eyes of those who also are beguiled by the threat of false brethren and their toleration of "shacking up" and such.

One unfortunate consequence of this tactic is that your neighbors are labeled in the worst sorts of ways. But then again, this does free you from responsibility for being neighborly, so perhaps the infamy you have given your brothers will keep them from asking to borrow your amplifier and prevent other such intrustions upon your blessed and chaste isolationism.

Also, it's always a great spirit booster to stand against that backslidden neice of the pastor down the road who wore a short skirt to a youth meeting after she finally caved in to her family's pleas to come to church. Whether or not the harlot prayed through as she so desperately needed is of little concern. You now have fodder for the next preacher-get-together and can confidently assure the brethren that the pastor involved has truly lost his way and surrendered all standards of holiness.

Another benefit is that you won't have to pack up the young people to take to any more of "those" youth meetings. You can spend the evenings more profitably engaged in online condemnation of the compromisers who have forced you to sit alone in your darkened study; the dim light of the monitor being your own beacon of hope.

So, sadly, here we will always be holding. The hardest thing for any of us to do is to confront the long and stubbornly held methods of conduct among our brothers. We have misused their reputations for years to build ourselves up. To fess up now would involve tearing down at least some of which we have labored to build.

Of course if we all fessed up at once, then the act of tearing ourselves down might be offset by our brothers building us back up again. But then that would mean fellowshipping with those we betrayed.

[Maple Leaf]

Originally Posted by pelathais

The context that Steadfast creates here is a discussion of how there are "issues" that are "almost pushing" the Tulsa men out. What are the men being "pushed out" from? A bowling league? No, the UPC. His concerns are very narrowly aimed at the UPC, though they would be just as alarming if they were aimed at any other Apostolic body.

When I read Steadfast's post, I never thought for a moment that he was referring to UPC churches when he gave the three specific examples: shacking up; questioning Jesus name baptism; and social drinking. Usually, when a UPC preacher uses the term "so called Apostolic churches," he is referring to ex-UPC congregations.

If these three points were used as part of his argument in favour of Tulsa, they form a pretty weak argument as I expect the incidents of such churches within the UPC would be so small as to be inconsequential.

This is the statement that until Steadfast cleared it up, everyone thought involved "homosexual" "shacking up." But sin is sin, so the accusation remains. Are there UPC churches allowing this kind of behavior?

Like I said before, I obviously can't know everything about every church everywhere, but does this characterize the UPC in Texas?

I find it strange that anybody got "homosexual" from "shacking up." I have never heard the term "shacking up" applied to homosexuals. The term is generally applied to people living together without the benefit of a marriage covenant, and marriage for homosexuals is a relatively new practice.

Maple Leaf, do you really believe that right now there is a UPC pastor in Texas who openly allows a woman from Steadfast's church to minister on the platform with full knowledge that she is "shacking up with young men?" That was the implication of Steadfast's charge. When pressed about it, he did clarify the sexual orientation involved, but his accusation still stands.

I asked if there weren't "complexities" involved that might help us to understand the situation as being something else. Are we dealing with a rogue Jezebel on the loose in the Texas District? Does this "Jezebel" have the actual support of at least one UPC pastor as Steadfast has charged?

Again, in the post that I quoted, Steadfast did not say that the pastor was UPC or from Texas; neither did he say that she was ministering on the platform.

Steadfast said that she shacked up without backsliding. You've made the jump from there to Jezebel having the support of a UPC pastor. I think that it is more likely that she was sitting on the pew, claiming salvation, unrebuked - a totally different matter than ministering on the platform.

I have risen and said, "No." And for that Steadfast has said that I "lack integrity." I'm willing to submit the whole matter, with these posts for arbitration to the Steadfast's District board.

Better still, I humbly submit the matter to Brother Steadfast's own conscience.

Now, that's a matter entirely between you and Steadfast.

[freeatlast]

Originally Posted by Maple Leaf

When I read Steadfast's post, I never thought for a moment that he was referring to UPC churches when he gave the three specific examples: shacking up; questioning Jesus name baptism; and social drinking. Usually, when a UPC preacher uses the term "so called Apostolic churches," he is referring to ex-UPC congregations.

If these three points were used as part of his argument in favour of Tulsa, they form a pretty weak argument as I expect the incidents of such churches within the UPC would be so small as to be inconsequential.



I find it strange that anybody got "homosexual" from "shacking up." I have never heard the term "shacking up" applied to homosexuals. The term is generally applied to people living together without the benefit of a marriage covenant, and marriage for homosexuals is a relatively new practice.




Again, in the post that I quoted, Steadfast did not say that the pastor was UPC or from Texas; neither did he say that she was ministering on the platform.

Steadfast said that she shacked up without backsliding. You've made the jump from there to Jezebel having the support of a UPC pastor. I think that it is more likely that she was sitting on the pew, claiming salvation, unrebuked - a totally different matter than ministering on the platform.



Now, that's a matter entirely between you and Steadfast.

Been reading this thread and have been amazed at what appears to be some misunderstading.

Maple Leaf...I think you have writely discerned the written word here.

Kudos to you !!

[Apprehended]

As one who is given to strong passion of what I believe, but willing to change that belief in an instant on my road to Damascus, I now believe it is about time to drop this and go on to another subject. There are more profitible discussion going on...or at least some can be started that would benefit all.

[freeatlast]

Originally Posted by Apprehended

As one who is given to strong passion of what I believe, but willing to change that belief in an instant on my road to Damascus, I now believe it is about time to drop this and go on to another subject. There are more profitible discussion going on...or at least some can be started that would benefit all.

A hearty AMEN form me...this is my second and last comment on this thread.

I love all the players involved in this back and forth banter....and it hurts a little to read the posting of the last few days.


I've killed a few other threads in my days by posting on them...maybe I'll get lucky here again on this thread.

May it rest in peace.

[pelathais]

Originally Posted by Maple Leaf

When I read Steadfast's post, I never thought for a moment that he was referring to UPC churches when he gave the three specific examples: shacking up; questioning Jesus name baptism; and social drinking. Usually, when a UPC preacher uses the term "so called Apostolic churches," he is referring to ex-UPC congregations.

If these three points were used as part of his argument in favour of Tulsa, they form a pretty weak argument as I expect the incidents of such churches within the UPC would be so small as to be inconsequential.

I appreciate your feedback and your perspective, Maple Leaf.

He did make the points in favour of Tulsa. He said that it was situations like this that were "almost pushing out" men like those at Tulsa. What were the men at Tulsa being "almost pushed out" of? The UPC!

If he intended to say more that would clarify the matter he has had planty of opportunities. He did clarify the sexual orientation that was implied by his first post, but for me, sin is sin and the "orientation" is not the problem. Sin and the open promotion and toleration of sin is the problem that he alleged.

Originally Posted by Maple Leaf

I find it strange that anybody got "homosexual" from "shacking up." I have never heard the term "shacking up" applied to homosexuals. The term is generally applied to people living together without the benefit of a marriage covenant, and marriage for homosexuals is a relatively new practice.

The statement was "shacking up with young men..." An ambiguity to be sure, but the intention of the post was to provide justification for those who feel "almost pushed out" of the UPC by the promotion and toleration of open sin.
[/quote]

Originally Posted by Maple Leaf

Again, in the post that I quoted, Steadfast did not say that the pastor was UPC or from Texas; neither did he say that she was ministering on the platform.

Steadfast said that she shacked up without backsliding. You've made the jump from there to Jezebel having the support of a UPC pastor. I think that it is more likely that she was sitting on the pew, claiming salvation, unrebuked - a totally different matter than ministering on the platform.

It was in a later post that he brought up the platform. And again, the context was those who were "alomst pushed out" of the UPC and then he gave examples of that "pushing." If he intended more than what was said, or even less, simple clarifications suffice.

I accepted the clarification that it was heterosexual sin and not the homosexual sin that appeared to be implied. Yet sin, is still sin.

Originally Posted by Maple Leaf

Now, that's a matter entirely between you and Steadfast.

Yes, but your thoughts are wise and appreciated.

[RevBuddy]

Originally Posted by George

RevBuddy, I already sang two songs. You wanna do the altar call?

Praise the Lord!

With every head bowed and every eye closed, I know there are those among us who really need the wonderful gift of the Holy Ghost and there are others who want to draw nearer to the Lord and establish a more intimate relationship with Him.

Just put your hand on your computer - the Lord will make it REAL time - you can take this day...this hour...and this moment to recommit yourself to His purpose and calling...

Each and every one of you has enjoyed the blessing and fellowship of His perfect forum or fora...and now is the acceptable time...now is the time to take that first step...now is the time to move from just entering, deleting, escaping or paging down...now is the time to move out from behind the protection of your keyboard...and move to the altar of commitment and acceptance...

Now, singing, "Have thine own way Lord" (times 26)...

If you have been moved by this entreaty...just lift your hand right now...with every head bowed and every eye closed... "Thank you, brother," "Thank you, sister" Many, many hands being raised across the www... Let's all come forward at this time...

Now singing, "Can't nobody do me like Jesus" (times 54)...