Ty Lafon, an interesting counterpoint. Can you expand on the below, provide some refs? ty
"a “restored” nation of Israel (which the Scriptural record explicitly asserts in several instances would occur as the end of the present age drew near)"
bbyrd009, I have managed to arrive at this conclusion based upon the manner in which I believe the following scriptural passage should be interpreted (there are others, of course, but for the sake of this discussion allow me to utilize just this one):
And it shall come to pass in that day, that the Lord shall set his hand again the second time to recover the remnant of his people, which shall be left, from Assyria, and from Egypt, and from Pathros, and from Cush, and from Elam, and from Shinar, and from Hamath, and from the islands of the sea. (Isaiah 11:11 KJV)
As we who have lived since the end of World War II and have seen the news reports and video clips of the horrendous torture and deaths of untold numbers of Israelis which took place during that era, we know that in accordance with what is known as the Balfour (sp?) Declaration, the British Empire who controlled the land of Palestine at the end of that war, were required to allow the Jews to resume possession of this land which God had promised to Abraham and his descendants. As a result, we have also been witness to countless Jews, from around the world and from every nation to where God had caused them to be scattered, to return to that land.
When God inspired Isaiah to record that He would "recover the remant of his people" (the Israelites] from the other nations of the world, and bring them once again to their "promised land," He also said that this gathering (or, in fact, re-gathering) of His chosen people, the descendants of Abraham, would represent the "second" instance wherein He had accomplished such a task. The first, of course, was done under the leadership of Moses, whenever God brought the nation of Israel from out of the bondage of Egypt.
As I stated previously, there are other passages in the scriptures which refer to this re-gathering of the Jews and the return to their "promised" homeland before the 2nd coming of their Messiah to that land.
I pray that this brief explanation will be helpful.
I also believe it worthy of note that the prophet Hosea was inspired of God to write of that moment, which would come to pass, when the Jewish people would come under yet another time of severe persecution, and would cry out to God, saying,
"Come, and let us return unto the LORD: for he hath torn, and he will heal us; he hath smitten, and he will bind us up.
After two days will he revive us: in the third day he will raise us up, and we shall live in his sight.
Then shall we know, if we follow on to know the LORD: his going forth is prepared as the morning; and he shall come unto us as the rain, as the latter and former rain unto the earth." (Hosea 6:1-3 KJV)
In Hosea 5:15 (the passage which immediately precedes), we find this expressed statement of the LORD: "I will go and return to my place, till they acknowledge their offence, and seek my face: in their affliction they will seek me early."
Seeing that the apostle Peter advises that "...beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day" (II Peter 3:8 KJV), then one must conclude that following Jesus' ascension to His throne somewhere around 33AD (if, in fact, our calendars are correct), then the anticipated date of His return again to the land of Israel will take place during the opening part of this century (the exact day or hour is unknown, of course).
IMHO, we are living in that period which immediately precedes the ending of life upon this planet as mankind has known it to be for many years, for the 2nd coming of Christ Jesus draws nearer with the closing of each day. (I shall refrain from speaking of those things which I have been led to believe are yet to occur before this event takes place, leaving that for another time and place, but nevertheless such things are certainly worthy of our examination as well as that which we are addressing here.)
Again, hope that this will help in your understanding. I submit it strictly for consideration, for each must decide all things for themself alone.
I have managed to arrive at this conclusion based upon the manner in which I believe the following scriptural passage should be interpreted (there are others, of course, but for the sake of this discussion allow me to utilize just this one):
And it shall come to pass in that day, that the Lord shall set his hand again the second time to recover the remnant of his people, which shall be left, from Assyria, and from Egypt, and from Pathros, and from Cush, and from Elam, and from Shinar, and from Hamath, and from the islands of the sea. (Isaiah 11:11 KJV)
And yet the scriptures are not without a witness that this was fulfilled at Pentecost when the remnant of Israel was regathered into one body (nation) through the baptism of the spirit.
And [when] this sound occurred, the crowd gathered and was in confusion, because each one was hearing them speaking in his own language. And they were astounded and astonished, saying, “Behold, are not all these who are speaking Galileans? And how do we hear, each one [of us], in our own native language? Parthians and Medes and Elamites and those residing [in] Mesopotamia, Judea and Cappadocia, Pontus and Asia, Phrygia and Pamphylia, Egypt and the parts of Libya toward Cyrene, and the Romans who were in town, both Jews and proselytes, Cretans and Arabs—we hear them speaking in our [own] languages the great deeds of God!” Acts 2:6-11
What rationale and warrant do we have to reject the obvious witness of scripture in order to speculate and project a prophecy's fulfillment into the future?
Last edited by Zechariah_14_5; 02-25-2012 at 08:53 AM.
Ha you got jokes. I'm actually not sure how true that is at all; but i trust the Spirit mostly anyway. I have testing and fruit for a guide. I have a hedge around me, and I can ask for anything I need and get it. God is very good to me, Timmy. When we can agree on the 9/10ths, which is about to happen...ha nevermind about that, do you have an opinion about the fig tree, or are you just here to toss a toothpick?
Nah, I'll let everyone else figure it out. But I'll say it's pretty iffy to try to make it refer to something in the far future, many centuries after "this" generation passed.
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Hebrews 13:23 Know ye that our brother Timothy is set at liberty
Nah, I'll let everyone else figure it out. But I'll say it's pretty iffy to try to make it refer to something in the far future, many centuries after "this" generation passed.
And yet the scriptures are not without a witness that this was fulfilled at Pentecost when the remnant of Israel was regathered into one body (nation) through the baptism of the spirit.
And [when] this sound occurred, the crowd gathered and was in confusion, because each one was hearing them speaking in his own language. And they were astounded and astonished, saying, “Behold, are not all these who are speaking Galileans? And how do we hear, each one [of us], in our own native language? Parthians and Medes and Elamites and those residing [in] Mesopotamia, Judea and Cappadocia, Pontus and Asia, Phrygia and Pamphylia, Egypt and the parts of Libya toward Cyrene, and the Romans who were in town, both Jews and proselytes, Cretans and Arabs—we hear them speaking in our [own] languages the great deeds of God!” Acts 2:6-11
What rationale and warrant do we have to reject the obvious witness of scripture in order to speculate and project a prophecy's fulfillment into the future?
Again, hope that this will help in your understanding. I submit it strictly for consideration, for each must decide all things for themself alone.
I enjoyed hearing your thoughts, and ideas about the fig tree, and especially I appreciated your last thought, noted above.
None of us really know for sure exactly the meaning of all the parables, prophet writings, and scriptures, and how they all work together. In fact Jesus himself, said he did not know the day or the hour when He would return. So each one of us must be ready, study, and watch the signs around us...
I personally feel that some of the parables, and prophecies have been fulfilled, and also that history does repeat itself. But there are still things that have not been completely fulfilled too in the scriptures... what about the moon turning into darkness and the sun into blood... don't think that has happened yet.
When anyone states that he or she *KNOWS* and has all this figured out... it is then I don't really want to hear what they have to say, because of Jesus's statement "No man knoweth the day or the hour"...
What rationale and warrant do we have to reject the obvious witness of scripture in order to speculate and project a prophecy's fulfillment into the future?
We don't. I believe many of the prophecies have been fulfilled at Pentecost, and then with the destruction of Jerusalem, and then again in 1948 there was a natural people put together back on their homeland from which they had been scattered from for thousands of years.
I am thinking that history repeats itself, and that some prophecies were for a certain time only, and others perhaps have come to pass already, and will come to pass again. I don't know. It is pure speculation only.
Only God himself knows, as Jesus even said, no man knows the day or the hour... Our goal should be living in the kingdom of God now, and living today like it could be our last day, even though we may live to a ripe old age. If Jesus himself did not know when all these things were coming to pass, then why do we think we are smarter, or have more insight than he?
That is why I take all this endtime stuff with a grain of salt... for we see through a glass darkly... someday it will all make sense, but today, let's not worry so much about whether "today" will be the end of time when Jesus returns, but why not make today the first day of the rest of your life, and live it with all you've got, loving the Lord Jesus, and loving one another.... for in doing that, no matter what comes, you'll be prepared, and ready.
Again, just my thoughts, and posted here also for consideration....
Just another point of view, all OT prophecy was written during a time Isreal the nation was still in a state of becoming a nation again after being take into captivity. They had their temple having building it first, then the rebuilding of the walls of Jerusalem. Even after this that temple was desicrated and Herod rebuilt it again. Some thing many of us seem to forget. There for the temple at the time of Christ being the third temple not the second.
That being said all things prophecied in in OT can be found to be fulfilled before and with the comming of Christ and his kingdom when one sees the kingdom of God is spiritual and never to be physical. The refusal to understand the symbolism of prophecy and literalizing everything into a physical fulfillment is to completly leave the understanding of prophecy as given in OT times. One of the main reason natural Isreal did not recieve The Christ when he came. This refusal to accept the kingdom of God as spiritual is the only reason we think of a second comming. That and the misreprestation of Jesus and Johns prophecy of the judgment of Jerusalem to come in that generation. The second comming of Christ in Matt 24 and the parellel passages, refer to the same type of comming God gave to OT prophets when he came and brought judgment to Isreal and surrounding country in OT times. He God did not come in physical form any more than Christ did in 70ad.
Just another way of looking at scripture.
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