Tulsa Report Day 2

[freeatlast]

Originally Posted by AGAPE

we stopped fellowshipping youth camps and rallies while we were still upc...

and we have one of the better youth camps/rallies

Tom Foster, Doug White, etc being night speakers

the abundance of jewelry and "revealing" clothing helped push us over the line...

Where is this at AGAPE? Texas?

[StMark]

Originally Posted by Diamond Jim

Let me tell you the facts.The youth from the hard line churches may have "looked" holy,but they were FAR from it! Their girls were practically tripping over their dresses dragging on the ground. Why didn't that keep them from fornicating? The hard line churches had the most out of wedlock pregnancies and problems with fornication(and adultery!)and drinking then ANY of the other churches that were considered "less holy".

That was a little mean-spirited

[scotty]

Originally Posted by Kings Kid

Has anyone spotted Bro.Paul Price or Bro.Brown.

Doubt seriously Bro. Price will be there

[StMark]

Originally Posted by freeatlast

Where is this at AGAPE? Texas?

Mississippi

[George]

Originally Posted by Diamond Jim

Let me tell you the facts.The youth from the hard line churches may have "looked" holy,but they were FAR from it! Their girls were practically tripping over their dresses dragging on the ground. Why didn't that keep them from fornicating? The hard line churches had the most out of wedlock pregnancies and problems with fornication(and adultery!)and drinking then ANY of the other churches that were considered "less holy".

That was pretty hard but I have heard it is true in the California UPC.

[Minister_WD]

Originally Posted by scotty

Doubt seriously Bro. Price will be there

I will have to ask about this.....last I heard Price and Brown announced that they were leaving the UPC.Whether or not they were going with Tulsa remains the question

[Todd]

Originally Posted by Diamond Jim

Let me tell you the facts.The youth from the hard line churches may have "looked" holy,but they were FAR from it! Their girls were practically tripping over their dresses dragging on the ground. Why didn't that keep them from fornicating? The hard line churches had the most out of wedlock pregnancies and problems with fornication(and adultery!)and drinking then ANY of the other churches that were considered "less holy".

You say these are the facts. But do you have hard numbers to prove these 'facts'? When you start saying facts, you step outside the realm of speculation, facts require proof.

[Dan]

Originally Posted by timlan2057

Now Steadfast, in your attempts to make these Tulsa brethren's motives appear as pure as the wind-driven snow, you gotta admit the kid might have a point here.

"Might"?

I KNOW he does.

Let's use a specific example of whether the Tulsa guys are motivated by the UPC drifting "leftward."

I guess "worldly sports" would be considered something these guys would be concerned with, eh?

I notice Rick Treece is one of the "council of 49."

He's a great guy, a fine minister and one of the not-so-many whose ministry is not just a pale reflection of daddy's. He carved out his own niche and is not just "prophecy preacher" Jr.

Marvin Treece was not my pastor. Murrell Ewing was. But Marvin Treece was probably the preacher I tried to emulate as far as study habits, qualifications and professional bearing.

One could sit in front of Marvin Treece and feel the same sense of "qualification" and "professionalism" that one feels in his doctor's or attorney's office.

That's not a common thing to me.

A significant number of "ole time" pentecostal preachers, I wouldn't want or trust to counsel me when to go use the bathroom, much less on weightier matters involving my career or family.

But my relationship with the Treeces goes back many years.

I've preached for them and they've preached for me.

Marvin and Rick never were big "organizational" men.

I don't mean that in a bad sense - but in the sense that Marvin might not go every night to Louisiana campmeeting because he was fatigued from preaching out. Like he told me one time: "I want to be home sometimes."

But I find it rather ludicrous that Rick Treece would be on the general board of a new organization predicated on being more "holy" and "conservative" than the present day UPC.

But anyway, back to "worldly sports."

My ex-brother-in-law has attended Apostolic Temple for many years.

And yes, we still have very friendly relations.

His sons are and were extremely good high school athletes ... almost borderline college-scholarship athletes. Baseball and basketball, primarily.

And yes, with all the "immodest clothing" and "worldly atmosphere" and all the tired old cliches "old time pentecost" throws at these things.

I checked with my son and daughter to be sure my facts were straight and they mentioned times when their cousins could not be at youth camp because of American Legion baseball schedules.

Now me personally?

I'M not calling "hypocrites." My children's cousins are fine young men and I'm glad they are examples of 21st century apostolic youth, ALONG with Kathleen Herles.

I guess the stone-throwers like this "Melody" would rather have them on a barstool than wearing a dress that shows a little shoulder or wearing basketball shorts.

I'm not condemning - I applaud Pastor Treece for not being some micro-manager pastor.

And yes, my ex-brother-in-law's family is involved and are one of the main families at Apostolic Temple - they are not just observers.

Pray tell, HOW would some of these neanderthals in the Tulsa crowd feel if they knew one of their oh-so-conservative general board members allows his youth to play worldly high school sports?

So what is happening?

This is a political shindig where these guys are tolerating in their buddies what they condemn in their political enemies.

That's the truth that this SPECIFIC example brings out.

I won't even TOUCH the TV thing.

But frankly, I don't blame Epley for laughing at some of the names on there who are so dead set against television while their churches are full of them.

I'll leave that alone.

But if any of you people trying to make plaster saints out of this Tulsa gang challenges me on this, I can and WILL name names.

But you people know the truth of that as much as I do.

So JrLa, for a young guy with a lot to learn, you hit the nail right on the head so don't let anyone try to tell you your youth betrays you here.

Tulsa is NOT about "convictions."

It's about POLITICS, pure and simple.

And some of you preachers and others can just wrestle with that all you want to.

You know Tim.....I agree with you. And if others would confess it, they know the same things.

Maybe we need to understand what WWPF stands for. How about W____ Wins Power Finally?

Just my opinion.

[Todd]

Originally Posted by StMark

Mississippi

I'm from MS, wife from TX. It had to be one of us.

[StMark]

Originally Posted by Todd

You say these are the facts. But do you have hard numbers to prove these 'facts'? When you start saying facts, you step outside the realm of speculation, facts require proof.

I don't see any point in digging up a lot of dirty laundry. many people have married and made things right in the past