Tulsa Report Day 2

[George]

Originally Posted by BoredOutOfMyMind

Another ozone filled negative post.

Are you hitting up the fruit that is too warm, George?

For the life of me, I have no idea why I deserve your wrath. I thought I was having a friendly conversation with Steadfast. I have no animosity towards anyone. Are you entering conversations too late without understanding their entire text and direction?

Originally Posted by Stephen Hoover

Steady, I understand the desire to lift a higher standard and also know TV has been a Hot Topic - especially in some districts.

Pardon me if this has been asked before, but please answer me these questions.

1. These who are inclined to withdraw fellowship over TV viewing, do they watch television clips on the internet?

2. If they don't watch TBN, FOX, ABC or CNN online, do they watch anything on You Tube that had previously been aired on TV? Where is the line of demarkation?

3. We are told that phone/commuter/television will continue to merge, both in hardware and services.

How will these brethren handle this?

How will they police the violators and is it really possible to have true enforcement?


Just to be clear -With very little exception, I am NOT a TV watcher. I am very interested in your answers, because it appears to be conundrum for not only the UPCI but for ALL who have/had a stance against television.


Thank You in advance, Steve Hoover

Bro. Hoover,

I surely cannot be expected to speak for the whole of the conservative minded brethren. Without a doubt it would be a foolish thing to think that the Tulsa movement is going to be a 'cure all' for every spiritual woe known unto mankind. There WILL be divisions even among those 'conservative' minded men somewhere down the road over various issues.

One thing I DO know is that technology will mandate that they each have to come to some kind of conclusion in their own hearts about how they are going to preach / teach when it pertains to Hollywood.

Thankfully I was dealt with strongly by the Lord 4 years ago to start taking the emphasis off the 'object' and start preaching character to my precious people. The day will come that every computer has TV as a part of the 'package' and we're NOT going to get rid of our computers now because they are too intricately intertwined in our society.

What will work in those times? Character and NOTHING else. Do I still preach what I've always preached? Sure. But I don't preach against a plastic box full of circuitry... I preach that every man should have character and enough Godly integrity that you shouldn't want to pour sin into your mind.

How do they 'police' it? We really can't 'police' it now as people are free to live as they wish. Thankfully, I've lived al life in front of my people that they, in turn, respect my opinions in matters that have spiritual consequences.

[Hoovie]

Originally Posted by Steadfast

Bro. Hoover,

I surely cannot be expected to speak for the whole of the conservative minded brethren. Without a doubt it would be a foolish thing to think that the Tulsa movement is going to be a 'cure all' for every spiritual woe known unto mankind. There WILL be divisions even among those 'conservative' minded men somewhere down the road over various issues.

One thing I DO know is that technology will mandate that they each have to come to some kind of conclusion in their own hearts about how they are going to preach / teach when it pertains to Hollywood.

Thankfully I was dealt with strongly by the Lord 4 years ago to start taking the emphasis off the 'object' and start preaching character to my precious people. The day will come that every computer has TV as a part of the 'package' and we're NOT going to get rid of our computers now because they are too intricately intertwined in our society.

What will work in those times? Character and NOTHING else. Do I still preach what I've always preached? Sure. But I don't preach against a plastic box full of circuitry... I preach that every man should have character and enough Godly integrity that you shouldn't want to pour sin into your mind.

How do they 'police' it? We really can't 'police' it now as people are free to live as they wish. Thankfully, I've lived al life in front of my people that they, in turn, respect my opinions in matters that have spiritual consequences.

WOW! Bro., This is not what I would expect from you and those sympathetic to the Tulsa meeting. Is this not the position of AM and those who are often slammed by the "anti-TV" crowd.

I agree with your answer but, I am afraid it is getting more and more confusing as to exactly what the beef is.

Blessings, SH

[IAintMovin]

Originally Posted by CC1

Wow, I didn't even know you had gotten married!

ROFL..........now that IS funny.........(not the getting married part, but that the wifey had was not speaking......)

Originally Posted by Apprehended

Thanks for your response.

I certainly agree that they have a constitutional right.

Whatever happened to the principle of submission? Or whatever happend to the principle of "obey them that have the rule over you." Whatever happened to the idea of humility when everything does not go "MY" way?

If there are powers that are ordained of God, as all of these bretheren teach, what is so objectionable to submitting to that power? If we are going to CONTEND for the faith that was once delivered unto the saints, before whom are we going to contend...the world? No. We must contend for THAT faith before all of whom is departing from that faith.

Jude 4 makes that plain..."For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness..." Little good it does for preachers to preach to preachers who all preach the same thing, unless of course they are just trying to see who can strut the most and outdo each other.

Your prayer that God bless the Tulsa crowd is mine as well. Hopefully, the Lord will lead them to believe and to accept the doctrine of submission, humility and unity, even when everything does not go their way.

Again, thanks for your response.

If I were utilize the wholesale 'anything that pulls away isn't submissive' reasoning then I would venture to say that Paul wouldn't have made that break from Christian killer to New Testament writer. He broke away from the religous system he no longer could walk in agreement with.

What about others who have walked away from religious systems they could no longer agree with? Was Martin Luther lacking 'submission' to the Roman Catholic Church a bad thing?

While NOBODY believes in spiritual submission than I do I also realize that there are times that the Bible actually CONDONES certain parting of ways. Remember that whole "can two walk together except they agree" and the "house divided against itself" stuff?

I'm sorry... I'm submitted to the extreme to the spiritual authroities in my world. However, my submission is to a REAL Pastor and Elders who aren't afraid to tell me the truth. While I may respect them to the uttermost... I've never feigned a lot of deep spiritual submission to a system of elected officials who don't even know my name. To do so would eliminate the 'autonomy' of the local Church.

The United Pentecostal Church is a great organization. The greatest on the face of the Earth when it comes to promoting this precious truth. I guess that is what confuses me the most... if some of you weren't ripping on the Tulsa crew you would be ripping on the UPC. How is it now that we have so many fierce 'protectors'?

The clear conscience that I have today is a result of the fact that I'm not against EITHER group. In fact, while some of you are seeing me as a 'protector' of the Tulsa crowd, the truth is that I'm protectecting the right of both to do what they feel is right!

[Apprehended]

Originally Posted by Felicity

This would make a great quote.

Thank you, dear lady, thank you indeed. Coming from you, it is a great compliment.

Originally Posted by CC1

Steadfast,

If I were a cynical man I would think you are positioning yourself to preach meetings for the Tulsaites!!!

I could be wrong but I seem to remember you giving much less weight to this meeting before 1,000 of your conservative brethern showed up for it. I could be wrong. According to my wife I have been wrong before. A lot.

CC1, 'hast thou been so long with me and yet not know me'? If I wanted to have been in Tulsa I would have been there front and center! I'm NOT looking for another place to preach as I can't keep up with my present schedule right now.

You are, thankfully, totally wrong about the 'weight' of my opinions on this matter as I've always said that the Tulsa crew had a right to do what they felt was right in their hearts. I have no beef with either side and, with God's graciousness, am in a position to be respected it seems on both sides of that coin.

I have preached for or with most all of the '6' and have a good report among those brethren. I also preach for a lot of officials as well and love those brethren equally as much. Surely the Bible is right when it tells us the value of a 'good name' being more important than 'great riches'.

For example, I'm preaching for one of the 'coordinators' and then less than a month later preaching for their District Superintendent. I'm not here with an axe to grind... just a prinicple of integrity to protect.

[CC1]

Yesterday I was reminded once more of just how fast technology is merging. My new Dell desktop has Windows Vista Premium with "Media Center" installed.

I have used the media center to play some DVd's a little but nothing else. Yesterday for the first time I paid attention to the selections that pop up in addition to "play DVD". One was "Internet TV" it was marked "beta" so I guess it is in the testing stage.

When I clicked there it brought up a row of programs I could select at no charge (just have to watch commercials like on broadcast tv).

Among the choices were news programs and other reality programming but also there was the entire first season of Arrested Development, a network sitcom. I was in a rush and didn't look any further but this is further evidence that anyone with a fairly new computer and broadband connection is going to have pretty much the same programming available as if they owned a TV.

Perhaps the solution is for the conservative brethern to head this off at the pass by restricting internet use to dial up service? Could be a resolution for the next WWPF meeting!

[CC1]

Originally Posted by Steadfast

CC1, 'hast thou been so long with me and yet not know me'? If I wanted to have been in Tulsa I would have been there front and center! I'm NOT looking for another place to preach as I can't keep up with my present schedule right now.

You are, thankfully, totally wrong about the 'weight' of my opinions on this matter as I've always said that the Tulsa crew had a right to do what they felt was right in their hearts. I have no beef with either side and, with God's graciousness, am in a position to be respected it seems on both sides of that coin.

I have preached for or with most all of the '6' and have a good report among those brethren. I also preach for a lot of officials as well and love those brethren equally as much. Surely the Bible is right when it tells us the value of a 'good name' being more important than 'great riches'.

For example, I'm preaching for one of the 'coordinators' and then less than a month later preaching for their District Superintendent. I'm not here with an axe to grind... just a prinicple of integrity to protect.

It should be interesting for folks like you over the next year or two. It will be interesting to see if there are no problems with you preaching for both UPC and WWPF pastors and meetings. I know theoretically there should not be but many times reality intrudes.

Originally Posted by George

Yet, as you very well know, they are a large enough group to sway votes at gen. conf. but they didn't stay in the fight. They could have controlled the direction.
Because we have held these men in such high esteem, it is beyond our finite minds to believe they have been less than ethical. Nearly everyone of the executive committee lost district or regional positions by very narrow margins. This leads the general population to believe they desire position so much they will form their own organization to guarantee their status. We are once again back at square one struggling to believe it could possibly be eogs as the driving force. Even so, there isn't anything wrong with desiring position.....unless you lose your ethics in so doing.

George, I'm sorry but I'll never be convinced that 'losing postitions' was the deciding factor in their involvement in Tulsa. Again, I've preached for most of them and can tell you - firsthand - that some of them even turned down positions... some several times.