Hey, I'd like to add that there are some "Church of God" churches here in Florida, that are in fact "Holiness"
I am Apostolic, however my best friend is COG, and there church is holiness just like Apostolic churches. There are probably more out there...
Just thought I'd share....
Interesting, MissK.
I think we all know there are Trinitarian churches that have strict "holiness standards" too, just like a lot of Apostolic churches.
But if a Trinitarian in a COG church were to disagree with his church on the standards, and decide to part ways with them, how likely is it that he'd end up crossing over and going to a Oneness church instead? It almost never happens. He'd simply find another Trinitarian church that is on the same page as him on the standards issue.
It's only in Oneness that I see this common phenomenon of people saying "I disagree with the standards" --- and then they end up going to a church with a different godhead doctrine, and then changing their own view of the godhead also. Frankly, I think in too many cases these were people who had little regard or appreciation for correct foundational doctrine anyway. So the disagreement with "standards" just opened the door for them to just flow with the tide of current popular doctrines anyway, rather than maintain a firm conviction on things like godhead, baptism, etc.
__________________ http://endtimeobserver.blogspot.com
Daniel 12:3 And those who are wise shall shine like the brightness of the firmament; and those who turn many to righteousness, like the stars for ever.
She explained it like this to me when I asked her... She said, they believe in one body (Jesus) with three personalities.... I don't quite get that, but.... that's what they believe
I think we all know there are Trinitarian churches that have strict "holiness standards" too, just like a lot of Apostolic churches.
But if a Trinitarian in a COG church were to disagree with his church on the standards, and decide to part ways with them, how likely is it that he'd end up crossing over and going to a Oneness church instead? It almost never happens. He'd simply find another Trinitarian church that is on the same page as him on the standards issue.
It's only in Oneness that I see this common phenomenon of people saying "I disagree with the standards" --- and then they end up going to a church with a different godhead doctrine, and then changing their own view of the godhead also. Frankly, I think in too many cases these were people who had little regard or appreciation for correct foundational doctrine anyway. So the disagreement with "standards" just opened the door for them to just flow with the tide of current popular doctrines anyway, rather than maintain a firm conviction on things like godhead, baptism, etc.
Very true!!!!... I for one love my holiness standards.. I fell it is part of what seperates of from the "world" (for the lack of a better word)
She explained it like this to me when I asked her... She said, they believe in one body (Jesus) with three personalities.... I don't quite get that, but.... that's what they believe
If they're the Church of God that I know of, then they're Trinitarian. Many of their members will have some interesting (and odd) ways of explaining the godhead. But in the end, it's God existing eternally as three distinct "persons". Trinity.
__________________ http://endtimeobserver.blogspot.com
Daniel 12:3 And those who are wise shall shine like the brightness of the firmament; and those who turn many to righteousness, like the stars for ever.
I attended a trinity school in high school. I think it was Church of God Holiness, but I can't remember for sure. It might have been AoG Holiness???? I must be getting old...
Anyway, the principal (and pastor) had a daughter and her husband who attended his church. They got angry at him for allowing oneness kids to attend the school (that would be me and about 5 others), and quit his church. (He refused to kick us out or make us sign a statement.) In their opinion, we shouldn't have been allowed to attend unless our parents were willing to sign a doctrinal statement affirming the Trinity.
That is certainly not the first nor only time I have encountered dogmatic trinitarianism.
So while there ARE many trinitarians who really don't understand or can't explain the Godhead, and probably believe their church believes in one God, I don't buy the idea that all trinitarians really believe the same way we do. The fact is--they don't. And in doctrinal discussions with ministers and more educated constituents, you will find they usually DO believe in three distinct persons in the Godhead.
Ergo, whether someone in the church understands the trinitarian doctrine or not, the trinitarian church as a whole DOES understand it, and officially supports it. Most do NOT support the oneness doctrine as we would explain it or believe it.
There are denominations and non-denominational churches that choose to set aside differences of doctrine, but that is not the norm among most organizations in my experience.
__________________
"God, send me anywhere, only go with me. Lay any burden on me, only sustain me. And sever any tie in my heart except the tie that binds my heart to Yours."
--David Livingstone
"To see no being, not God’s or any, but you also go thither,
To see no possession but you may possess it—enjoying all without labor or purchase—
abstracting the feast, yet not abstracting one particle of it;…."
--Walt Whitman, Leaves of Grass, Song of the Open Road
So while there ARE many trinitarians who really don't understand or can't explain the Godhead, and probably believe their church believes in one God, I don't buy the idea that all trinitarians really believe the same way we do. The fact is--they don't. And in doctrinal discussions with ministers and more educated constituents, you will find they usually DO believe in three distinct persons in the Godhead.
Ergo, whether someone in the church understands the trinitarian doctrine or not, the trinitarian church as a whole DOES understand it, and officially supports it. Most do NOT support the oneness doctrine as we would explain it or believe it.
There are denominations and non-denominational churches that choose to set aside differences of doctrine, but that is not the norm among most organizations in my experience.
__________________ http://endtimeobserver.blogspot.com
Daniel 12:3 And those who are wise shall shine like the brightness of the firmament; and those who turn many to righteousness, like the stars for ever.
There really is not just ONE explanation for the trinity, or ONE explanation for Oneness. You'll find varying explanations from both camps.
There are dogmatic trinitarians just as there are dogmatic oneness people. Both sides can be eager to say that the other side is going to hell.
The majority of trinitarians that I have read, or talked to, are not tri-theistic. They will tell you emphatically that there is one God. They do believe that He has expressed Himself in three persons (although one trinitarian scholar that I read stated that 'persons' was probably not the best word to use). Oneness people use the word 'manifestations'. But if you talk to them, they often explain the godhead using the exact terms and explanations that we use.
I could never, ever accept that there is more than One God. But I'm also cautious in stating that all trinitarians believe in three gods. Because most that I've talked to don't. I've scratched my head a few times when listening to their explanations, because - hmmm.... that sounds like exactly what we believe!
Not all of them, but some. Particularly the more educated ones. This has just been my personal experience.
But then there are others.... yep. Three Gods. They are the ones that are waaaay off.
I attended a trinity school in high school. I think it was Church of God Holiness, but I can't remember for sure. It might have been AoG Holiness???? I must be getting old...
Anyway, the principal (and pastor) had a daughter and her husband who attended his church. They got angry at him for allowing oneness kids to attend the school (that would be me and about 5 others), and quit his church. (He refused to kick us out or make us sign a statement.) In their opinion, we shouldn't have been allowed to attend unless our parents were willing to sign a doctrinal statement affirming the Trinity.
That is certainly not the first nor only time I have encountered dogmatic trinitarianism.
So while there ARE many trinitarians who really don't understand or can't explain the Godhead, and probably believe their church believes in one God, I don't buy the idea that all trinitarians really believe the same way we do. The fact is--they don't. And in doctrinal discussions with ministers and more educated constituents, you will find they usually DO believe in three distinct persons in the Godhead.
Ergo, whether someone in the church understands the trinitarian doctrine or not, the trinitarian church as a whole DOES understand it, and officially supports it. Most do NOT support the oneness doctrine as we would explain it or believe it.
There are denominations and non-denominational churches that choose to set aside differences of doctrine, but that is not the norm among most organizations in my experience.
Exactly.
Our Oneness bibleschools cannot get acredited, not because of the quality of the education but because our schools do not teach the trinity.
That is a simple fact. No undergrad bibleschool that teaches Oneness doctrine can get an acredidation thru a christian school crediting system if they dont teach the trinity. and we cant use non-christian acredidation because we are christian schools.
THEY CARE.
I dont understand some of us dont.
__________________ If I do something stupid blame the Lortab!
She explained it like this to me when I asked her... She said, they believe in one body (Jesus) with three personalities.... I don't quite get that, but.... that's what they believe
Do you invite your friend to your assembly, or do you believe she is already saved?
...
On the other hand I have been saying for about 29 years Oneness Churches have been running people off in multitudes because of some unscriptural dress code teachings. So it is partly their own fault if the joy of walking in truth is fading among them.
There are folks who would like to go to a church where baptism is performed in Jesus' name but there is so much "garbage" to listen to and put up with like
--clothesline preaching;
--"holiness" or hell where the "holiness is somebody's weird ideas and personal preferences;
--stay away from those folks over there because they don't look just like us;
--don't make any personal decisions without consulting the pastor;
--don't work any job with evening of Sunday hours
--don't miss any scheduled service
--touch not (don't question in any way or disagree with in any manner) God's anointed because he holds the key to your salvation
--etc. etc.
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