Would Jesus And The Apostles Recognize The Church

[Michael The Disciple]

Originally Posted by GrowingPains

Missing the mark. Knowing to do good, but not doing it. Failing in obedience to Christ. Sin is both solitude action and a collective lifestyle. Sins are arrogance, slothfulness, deceit, covetousness, envy, jealousy, gossip, and on and on. The more I write the list, the more I agree with Paul that "all have sinned, and all fall short of God's glory." This doesn't mean I preach a Gospel FOR sin, on the contrary, the Gospel saves us as well as empowers us to avoid sin.

Paul was writing about the lost. When writing to the saints he exhorts along this line:

1: Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God. 2 Cor. 7:1

So how much filthiness of the flesh and spirit should remain? None! Its a daily walk. Abide in Yeshua. Take up the cross and crucify flesh.

This is the normal Christian life. For Christians to sin should be the exception not the rule.

[GrowingPains]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

Paul was writing about the lost. When writing to the saints he exhorts along this line:

1: Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God. 2 Cor. 7:1

So how much filthiness of the flesh and spirit should remain? None! Its a daily walk. Abide in Yeshua. Take up the cross and crucify flesh.

This is the normal Christian life. For Christians to sin should be the exception not the rule.

Absolutely. It should be obvious to the sinner, to where he acknowledges his sin before God when coming to Him in prayer.

[GrowingPains]

1 John 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

note from Jamieson-Fauset-Brown: that we have no sin- "Have," not "have had," must refer not to the past sinful life while unconverted, but to the present state wherein believers have sin even still.

We are only perfected, in the literal sense of the word, in the final redemption of the saints... when we all go home.

[Neubill]

Originally Posted by Aquila

... For example, for some folks nearly anything is sin. If you look at a beautiful woman or gaze at a nice care you'd like to have you've sinned (they claim it's covetousness). Even though you never acted on anything or went crazy. Others (the school I'm most closely tied to) would say that sin is strictly defined by the Ten Commandments. If that's the case, I can honestly say that I have no sin in my life either at this point.

So it all boils down to, how do you define "sin" and what "sins" are to be avoided? What are your thoughts brother?

Sin is transgression of Torah. The standard of Torah declared us to be sinners in the sight of God and declared Yeshua to be sinless.



Would Jesus and the Apostles recognize The Church? Not by a longshot.

Yeshua taught His Disciples to be great in the Kingdom of G-d by keeping even the least of the commandments of Torah and teaching others to do the same. The Law remains and so does the 7th Day Sabbath, yet the majority of the followers of Jesus pick and choose the parts of scripture they want to apply to their lives instead of realizing that putting the lifestyle of Torah into their life is essentially putting The Master into their lives, since Yeshua IS The Living Torah.

We're supposed to be keeping Torah. G-d didn't give the Torah to Israel to be saved, redeemed, or atoned for, nor did He give it so they could attain a specific level of righteousness: He gave it so they could be in covenant relationship with Him. The First Covenant isn't The Torah: the First Covenant is when all of Israel said (paraphrased) "We will hear and we will obey all that ADONAI tells us," and what He told them is Torah, which means instruction, not Law.

We'll all be keeping Torah in the Age to Come, evidenced by Zechariah 14 which says that all will keep the Festival of Booths (and woe to them that doesn't).

In conclusion, we don't keep Torah to attain our own level of righteousness or to be saved; we keep Torah because we ARE saved. While there's nothing wrong with worship on the 1st day of the week, we forget that even Paul kept the 7th day Sabbath. He tells us to be imitators of him, just as he is an imitator of Christ: Jesus kept the 7th day Sabbath. He also kept the appointed times of ADONAI (the feasts of Lev. 23) and held strict adherence to the dietary laws.

This isn't about attaining righteousness, it's about demonstrating obedience. Yeshua kept Torah out of obedience and He fulfilled The Torah by DOING IT, not doing away with it. As the One who gave The Torah in the first place, Yeshua then came as ADONAI manifest in flesh and showed us the fullest expression and meaning of Torah. Yeshua kept Torah, not according to Pharisaical Judaism or Sadducean Judaism, but according to Jesus-ism; as His followers, so should we.

[Michael The Disciple]

Originally Posted by GrowingPains

1 John 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

note from Jamieson-Fauset-Brown: that we have no sin- "Have," not "have had," must refer not to the past sinful life while unconverted, but to the present state wherein believers have sin even still.

We are only perfected, in the literal sense of the word, in the final redemption of the saints... when we all go home.

The Commentary like most Christian literature does not know the truth of Biblical perfection.

Apostolic Friends,

A closer look will be helpful.

If we say that we have no sin we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. 1 John 1:8

Standing alone this would seem to say sin can't be overcome.
But it isnt standing alone!

Check out THE CONTEXT.

If WE SAY we have fellowship with him AND WALK IN DARKNESS we lie and do not the truth.
But if we walk in the light as he is in the light we have fellowship one with another and the blood of Jesus Christ his son cleanseth us from all sin.
If we say that we have no sin we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us.
If we confess our sins he is faithful and just to forgive our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 1 John 1:6-9

Who is John speaking to in verse 8?
He addresses THOSE IN VERSE 6 WHO ALTHOUGH THEY WERE WALKING IN SIN THEY WERE CLAIMING A RIGHT STANDING-FELLOWSHIP WITH YESHUA!

THEY WERE DECEIVING THEMSELVES.
John was trying to open the eyes of those who denied their sins instead of REPENTING of them.

He by no means was implying to the body at large that they couldnt stop sinning.
He makes Gods expectation clear here:

My little children these things write I unto you THAT YE SIN NOT. And IF any man sin we have an advocate with the Father Jesus Christ the righteous. 2 John 1

So to the HOLY SPIRIT to not sin is THE RULE. But IF any one would sin they can confess and ask for mercy.
So 1 John 1:8 cannot be used as support against BIBLICAL PERFECTION.

John was not telling the same people not to sin then turning and saying if they said they were not sinning they were liars.

[Michael The Disciple]

Nuebill

He gave it so they could be in covenant relationship with Him. The First Covenant isn't The Torah: the First Covenant is when all of Israel said (paraphrased) "We will hear and we will obey all that ADONAI tells us," and what He told them is Torah, which means instruction, not Law.

The First Covenant was not Torah? Do you mean the Mt. Sinai Covenant? Clarify?

[Sept5SavedTeen]

Originally Posted by Neubill

Sin is transgression of Torah. The standard of Torah declared us to be sinners in the sight of God and declared Yeshua to be sinless.



Would Jesus and the Apostles recognize The Church? Not by a longshot.

Yeshua taught His Disciples to be great in the Kingdom of G-d by keeping even the least of the commandments of Torah and teaching others to do the same. The Law remains and so does the 7th Day Sabbath, yet the majority of the followers of Jesus pick and choose the parts of scripture they want to apply to their lives instead of realizing that putting the lifestyle of Torah into their life is essentially putting The Master into their lives, since Yeshua IS The Living Torah.

We're supposed to be keeping Torah. G-d didn't give the Torah to Israel to be saved, redeemed, or atoned for, nor did He give it so they could attain a specific level of righteousness: He gave it so they could be in covenant relationship with Him. The First Covenant isn't The Torah: the First Covenant is when all of Israel said (paraphrased) "We will hear and we will obey all that ADONAI tells us," and what He told them is Torah, which means instruction, not Law.

We'll all be keeping Torah in the Age to Come, evidenced by Zechariah 14 which says that all will keep the Festival of Booths (and woe to them that doesn't).

In conclusion, we don't keep Torah to attain our own level of righteousness or to be saved; we keep Torah because we ARE saved. While there's nothing wrong with worship on the 1st day of the week, we forget that even Paul kept the 7th day Sabbath. He tells us to be imitators of him, just as he is an imitator of Christ: Jesus kept the 7th day Sabbath. He also kept the appointed times of ADONAI (the feasts of Lev. 23) and held strict adherence to the dietary laws.

This isn't about attaining righteousness, it's about demonstrating obedience. Yeshua kept Torah out of obedience and He fulfilled The Torah by DOING IT, not doing away with it. As the One who gave The Torah in the first place, Yeshua then came as ADONAI manifest in flesh and showed us the fullest expression and meaning of Torah. Yeshua kept Torah, not according to Pharisaical Judaism or Sadducean Judaism, but according to Jesus-ism; as His followers, so should we.

We don't circumsize, but the Torah commands it... I wear clothing with different fabrics in it- do you believe this is a sin? Michael's question I believe will also further help clarify your teaching for our examination, I look forward to reading your responses.

-Bro. Alex

[nahkoe]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

The First Covenant was not Torah? Do you mean the Mt. Sinai Covenant? Clarify?

At Mt Sinai, they agreed to do anything He would tell them to do, not knowing what it was He would ask of them. Torah is what He asked.

Exodus 19:3-8

The 10 commandments are given after they people have already agreed to do what God had spoken. All he'd spoken at that point was that they were to keep His covenant and they would be a peculiar treasure unto Him. They agreed to the terms of the covenant without knowing what they were going to be.

Obviously, the 10 commandments are the entirety of the Torah.

[Sept5SavedTeen]

Originally Posted by GrowingPains

Aquila, no doubt the larger the church gathering, the more weighty the challenge, but you seem to believe we can't accomplish 1 Corinthians 14:26-40 through a larger church dynamic. Small group ministries, through the encouragement of large churches, have been quite successful at helping disciple thousands. While I share your burden for these special times of apostolic gathering, I don't think building a church center for corporate worship is necessarily the wrong thing -- nor, do I believe, one person speaking to the church at a designated time is less than what God wants. I don't see it as either-or. We can have both! Families should be more encouraged to bring church to their homes IMO.

The problem I've often seen in some apostolic churches that do not have small group ministries, is that some oppose these groups because they see them as a possible undermining of the pastor's authority. If many men are teaching throughout the assembly, and even called of GOD to teach and alternate teaching on Sunday mornings, this can tamper with the one-Pastor model so many have become accustomed to. Do you agree?

-Bro. Alex

[GrowingPains]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

The Commentary like most Christian literature does not know the truth of Biblical perfection.

Apostolic Friends,

A closer look will be helpful.

If we say that we have no sin we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. 1 John 1:8

Standing alone this would seem to say sin can't be overcome.
But it isnt standing alone!

Check out THE CONTEXT.

If WE SAY we have fellowship with him AND WALK IN DARKNESS we lie and do not the truth.
But if we walk in the light as he is in the light we have fellowship one with another and the blood of Jesus Christ his son cleanseth us from all sin.
If we say that we have no sin we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us.
If we confess our sins he is faithful and just to forgive our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 1 John 1:6-9

Who is John speaking to in verse 8?
He addresses THOSE IN VERSE 6 WHO ALTHOUGH THEY WERE WALKING IN SIN THEY WERE CLAIMING A RIGHT STANDING-FELLOWSHIP WITH YESHUA!

THEY WERE DECEIVING THEMSELVES.
John was trying to open the eyes of those who denied their sins instead of REPENTING of them.

He by no means was implying to the body at large that they couldnt stop sinning.
He makes Gods expectation clear here:

My little children these things write I unto you THAT YE SIN NOT. And IF any man sin we have an advocate with the Father Jesus Christ the righteous. 2 John 1

So to the HOLY SPIRIT to not sin is THE RULE. But IF any one would sin they can confess and ask for mercy.
So 1 John 1:8 cannot be used as support against BIBLICAL PERFECTION.

John was not telling the same people not to sin then turning and saying if they said they were not sinning they were liars.

Yes, context is important and well-done in shedding full light on this particular passage in light. You're doctrine of perfection is quite flawed, however. Perfect people still sin. Perfect people still have disease and sickness. We struggle daily with sin, and if you tell me you have no sin, and for you, this is rare, I see you just as those in 1 John that are the true ones that "walk in darkness" and deceive yourself.

Yes, any who advocates and promotes sinful behavior as an acceptable norm is a heretic, but likewise any who damns people into self-abuse because they think there are perfect people out there is worse than an infidel in my book.