Would Jesus And The Apostles Recognize The Church

[GrowingPains]

Originally Posted by Sept5SavedTeen

The problem I've often seen in some apostolic churches that do not have small group ministries, is that some oppose these groups because they see them as a possible undermining of the pastor's authority. If many men are teaching throughout the assembly, and even called of GOD to teach and alternate teaching on Sunday mornings, this can tamper with the one-Pastor model so many have become accustomed to. Do you agree?

-Bro. Alex

I personally don't personally. But I do agree that there are (sadly) churches with this complex. I do think there is a responsibility to make sure the believers adhere to doctrine, and accountability should be in place about what is being taught. There are ways to do that though, instead of just abstaining entirely. These churches are being left behind. Small groups are what most churches were started on, how can they abandon it now?

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by GrowingPains

Missing the mark. Knowing to do good, but not doing it. Failing in obedience to Christ. Sin is both solitude action and a collective lifestyle. Sins are arrogance, slothfulness, deceit, covetousness, envy, jealousy, gossip, and on and on. The more I write the list, the more I agree with Paul that "all have sinned, and all fall short of God's glory." This doesn't mean I preach a Gospel FOR sin, on the contrary, the Gospel saves us as well as empowers us to avoid sin.

I believe you're exactly right. Sinning is "missing the mark". However, I was in the military. Before one can "miss the mark" a mark must be set. What is that "mark"? I believe that "mark" is the moral Law of God. Every command in the Torah can be categorized under one of the Ten Commandments of God's Law. When the ceremonial law is set aside, when the civil and judicial laws of Israel found in the Torah are set aside, when the Levitical laws of the priesthood are set aside, you have the moral Law of God, the Ten Commandments. In short the commandments can be divided into two categories. The first shows us how to honor God. The second shows us how to honor our neighbor.

If something breaks God's Moral Law (one of the Ten Commandments) it is sin. Nothing more... nothing less.

[Michael The Disciple]

Originally Posted by Aquila

I believe you're exactly right. Sinning is "missing the mark". However, I was in the military. Before one can "miss the mark" a mark must be set. What is that "mark"? I believe that "mark" is the moral Law of God. Every command in the Torah can be categorized under one of the Ten Commandments of God's Law. When the ceremonial law is set aside, when the civil and judicial laws of Israel found in the Torah are set aside, when the Levitical laws of the priesthood are set aside, you have the moral Law of God, the Ten Commandments. In short the commandments can be divided into two categories. The first shows us how to honor God. The second shows us how to honor our neighbor.

If something breaks God's Moral Law (one of the Ten Commandments) it is sin. Nothing more... nothing less.

So do you keep Sabbath?

[Michael The Disciple]

Originally Posted by GrowingPains

Yes, context is important and well-done in shedding full light on this particular passage in light. You're doctrine of perfection is quite flawed, however. Perfect people still sin. Perfect people still have disease and sickness. We struggle daily with sin, and if you tell me you have no sin, and for you, this is rare, I see you just as those in 1 John that are the true ones that "walk in darkness" and deceive yourself.

Yes, any who advocates and promotes sinful behavior as an acceptable norm is a heretic, but likewise any who damns people into self-abuse because they think there are perfect people out there is worse than an infidel in my book.

This is a good example of what I am writing about. Here you are saying that one who teaches what the Lord Jesus Christ and the apostles taught is "damning people to self abuse" whatever you mean by that.

You should consider that those who are teaching you cannot cease from sin are the deceivers leading men to destruction in Gehenna.

Whats wrong with teaching what Yeshua taught? Did he teach it was to hard to obey his words?

7: But which of you, having a servant plowing or feeding cattle, will say unto him by and by, when he is come from the field, Go and sit down to meat?
8: And will not rather say unto him, Make ready wherewith I may sup, and gird thyself, and serve me, till I have eaten and drunken; and afterward thou shalt eat and drink?
9: Doth he thank that servant because he did the things that were commanded him? I trow not.
10: So likewise ye, when ye shall have done all those things which are commanded you, say, We are unprofitable servants: we have done that which was our duty to do. Luke 17:7-10

If you do all Yeshua commands you to do that does not make you something special. You would simply be doing what you were to do. There is no controversy from the New Testament teachings as to whether YHWH will accept into Heaven people with sin in their lives.

The weak perverted teachings of men would say "of course you cant be perfect". This doctrine gets you called "worse than an infidel".

Yet what did Yeshua say?

Be ye therefore perfect even as your Father in Heaven is perfect. Matt. 5:48

His word did not go away. It will stand till the day of judgment.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by GrowingPains

Aquila, no doubt the larger the church gathering, the more weighty the challenge, but you seem to believe we can't accomplish 1 Corinthians 14:26-40 through a larger church dynamic. Small group ministries, through the encouragement of large churches, have been quite successful at helping disciple thousands. While I share your burden for these special times of apostolic gathering, I don't think building a church center for corporate worship is necessarily the wrong thing -- nor, do I believe, one person speaking to the church at a designated time is less than what God wants. I don't see it as either-or. We can have both! Families should be more encouraged to bring church to their homes IMO.

I don't buy it.

American churches spend upwards of 70% or more of their revenue on buildings in the form of mortgages, building funds, maintenance etc. That leaves 30% or less. The remaining is typically used to sustain the pastor with a small portion going for charity, missions, and evangelism. Jesus said where man's treasure is his heart will be also. American churches are in love with their buildings. These are like idol temples, adored, revered, held sacred. They are beasts that tame the church, lulls them to sleep, breeds a spectator mentality, violates the clear commands of the Lord as delivered by Paul regarding what a church meeting should be. The fastest growing network of churches in the world are in areas where the church is forced to use home based networks. The American church is spoiled. If we realized that if we let go of our precious buildings and properties and dedicated ourselves as the original church did 2000 years ago we could set American on fire with the Gospel. Cell groups are not conducive in most models. Typically cell groups are heavily regulated because pastors are paranoid and they become little more than fellowship. We're talking "churches without walls". When a home based church becomes too big for all to participate, when it becomes so big there are obviously more than 3 qualified elders with the gift of prophecy... it's time to pray and get a vision to divide to multiply... then you have two home based groups. When each become too large again divide, now you have four.... then eight... then 16.... then 32.... then 64. This is how Rome was turned upside down with the Gospel of Jesus Christ. They didn't hunker down and dig in.... they expanded and multiplied. Even in areas and periods when the church didn't face persecution... this is how it was done.

I don't believe gathering in a larger body on occasion (perhaps once a month) is a sin... what I am saying is that the model we have isn't the model that turned the world upside down. We don't need to wait until we're persecuted to do it. We can do it and do it now. God is beckoning.. It's time to unleash the church.

You have to read the Words of Paul again. Paul plainly stated that those were the Lord's commands regarding church gathering and body ministry. Two, or at most three, were to deliver anointed teaching (prophecy). This was to be done in a way in so that if one sitting by had a revelation or an understanding they could be permitted to speak and share it. Try doing that in today's churches. In today's churches pastors "sermonize". If you study the "sermon" you will notice the homiletic behind the "sermon" is largely pattered and based on Aristotelian rhetoric. The Greek philosophers would gather their people together employ emotional pleas of prepared rhetoric using illustrations, and allegories. In the Old Testament messages were delivered impromptu and addressed current issues. Peter didn't "preach a sermon" on Pentecost... Peter delivered a message from God. Peter's speaking was prepared with the notion of persuasion through the use of smooth words and men's wisdom. But rather it was instant, from the heart, and full of the power and demonstration of the Holy Ghost. Elders should bring scripture to teach... however "sermonizing" should be discouraged.

Here's another issue to address... "preaching". Notice what the Bible says...

Acts 20:7
And upon the first day of the week, when the disciples came together to break bread, Paul preached unto them, ready to depart on the morrow; and continued his speech until midnight.

Paul didn't stand up in front of the crowd and rant and sermonize, rave, sweat and spit at them. The word for "preached" here is "dialegomai". It means to "reason with", it's the root that we get our English word "dialogue" from. Paul didn't rant as a one man show until midnight. No! He "reasoned with" the people, speaking, teaching, they asked questions, shared their thoughts, Paul laid emphasis on truths, and all were edified. What we do in our living rooms when we have company over and talk about the Word of God until 1 AM is far closer to how Paul preached and shared the Gospel than the traditional Aristotelian sermon.

Return to the Bible. Return to the New Testament pattern. Return to the first model of the Church that saw the greatest expansion of Christianity in human history. Get the guts to abandon the buildings, the offices, the salaries, the titles, and all that man takes glory for... and embrace... simple church. It can flourish in peace time, and nothing can stop it during persecution. The institutional church will not see the power of this model until their buildings are taken away from them by a tyrannical government. If we act now... we can turn our communities and perhaps even our nation around. God shouldn't have to take these things from us using persecution to get us to reach our world!

I digress.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Neubill

Sin is transgression of Torah. The standard of Torah declared us to be sinners in the sight of God and declared Yeshua to be sinless.



Would Jesus and the Apostles recognize The Church? Not by a longshot.

Yeshua taught His Disciples to be great in the Kingdom of G-d by keeping even the least of the commandments of Torah and teaching others to do the same. The Law remains and so does the 7th Day Sabbath, yet the majority of the followers of Jesus pick and choose the parts of scripture they want to apply to their lives instead of realizing that putting the lifestyle of Torah into their life is essentially putting The Master into their lives, since Yeshua IS The Living Torah.

We're supposed to be keeping Torah. G-d didn't give the Torah to Israel to be saved, redeemed, or atoned for, nor did He give it so they could attain a specific level of righteousness: He gave it so they could be in covenant relationship with Him. The First Covenant isn't The Torah: the First Covenant is when all of Israel said (paraphrased) "We will hear and we will obey all that ADONAI tells us," and what He told them is Torah, which means instruction, not Law.

We'll all be keeping Torah in the Age to Come, evidenced by Zechariah 14 which says that all will keep the Festival of Booths (and woe to them that doesn't).

In conclusion, we don't keep Torah to attain our own level of righteousness or to be saved; we keep Torah because we ARE saved. While there's nothing wrong with worship on the 1st day of the week, we forget that even Paul kept the 7th day Sabbath. He tells us to be imitators of him, just as he is an imitator of Christ: Jesus kept the 7th day Sabbath. He also kept the appointed times of ADONAI (the feasts of Lev. 23) and held strict adherence to the dietary laws.

This isn't about attaining righteousness, it's about demonstrating obedience. Yeshua kept Torah out of obedience and He fulfilled The Torah by DOING IT, not doing away with it. As the One who gave The Torah in the first place, Yeshua then came as ADONAI manifest in flesh and showed us the fullest expression and meaning of Torah. Yeshua kept Torah, not according to Pharisaical Judaism or Sadducean Judaism, but according to Jesus-ism; as His followers, so should we.

Neubill, are you of Jewish decent? I ask this because half of my wife's family is Jewish. And let me tell you... there's nothing sillier than some Gentile who worships some facade of Judaism and acts Jewish. Most are just insecure and want to appear smarter than they are. LOL I watched a Rabbi (a good friend, Rabbi Kopmar) chew a "Messianic" Christian up and spit them out. hehehe

[nahkoe]

Originally Posted by Aquila

I believe you're exactly right. Sinning is "missing the mark". However, I was in the military. Before one can "miss the mark" a mark must be set. What is that "mark"? I believe that "mark" is the moral Law of God. Every command in the Torah can be categorized under one of the Ten Commandments of God's Law. When the ceremonial law is set aside, when the civil and judicial laws of Israel found in the Torah are set aside, when the Levitical laws of the priesthood are set aside, you have the moral Law of God, the Ten Commandments. In short the commandments can be divided into two categories. The first shows us how to honor God. The second shows us how to honor our neighbor.

If something breaks God's Moral Law (one of the Ten Commandments) it is sin. Nothing more... nothing less.

You have to remember that the law was summed up as follows:

In Matthew, Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second [is] like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

In Mark, And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments [is], Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord: And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this [is] the first commandment. And the second [is] like, [namely] this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these.

In Luke, And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself.

And you also have to remember that there are far, far, far more than 10 commandments that were given. You can't weigh against those and exclude the rest.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

So do you keep Sabbath?

Yes. In fact I do. Do you?

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by nahkoe

You have to remember that the law was summed up as follows:

In Matthew, Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second [is] like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

In Mark, And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments [is], Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord: And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this [is] the first commandment. And the second [is] like, [namely] this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these.

In Luke, And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself.

And you also have to remember that there are far, far, far more than 10 commandments that were given. You can't weigh against those and exclude the rest.

God bless you nahkoe.

There are several types of laws in the "Law of Moses". It must be stated that every "Law of Moses" was based on a "Law of God". Every ceremonial law was to separate God's people from idolatry and false gods, pointing them to their greater fulfillment, Christ Jesus. Every Levitical Law was to keep the priests clean from idolatry and false gods, pointing them to Jesus Christ. Every civil law of Israel was to ensure that Israelites loved their neighbors and operated in a just society. Christ fulfilled the ceremonial and Levitical laws. The civil laws of Israel are not in place because Israel is no longer a nation (don't confuse modern Israel with biblical Israel). What still stands is the Law of God... the Ten Commandments.

These can be summed up in and categorized by two principles:

The Ten Commandments:

I. Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. How is this done?

1. You shall have no other gods before Me.
2. You shall not make idols or bow down to them, nor serve them.
3. You shall not use the name of the Lord your God disrespectfully.
4. Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy.

II. Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. How is this done?

5. Honor your father and your mother.
6. You shall not murder.
7. You shall not commit adultery.
8. You shall not steal.
9. You shall not lie about your neighbor.
10. You shall not lust for your neighbor's house, or his wife, or any
thing that is your neighbor's.

No man can be living in violation of the Law of God and be saved. This is "SIN". Wearing a wedding band isn't a sin. Women cutting their hair isn't a sin. Going to a baseball game with your son isn't a sin. Smoking a cigar when your baby boy was born or with a friend after dinner isn't a sin. Having a glass of fine brandy on your front porch on a cool fall evening isn't a sin. Some of these things can be "weights" that bog us down spiritually by stealing time, money, health, or attention from the Kingdom. But these are not sins.

Sin is defined by the big Ten. It's possible for a Christian to live above sin.

Do you worship other god's next to God?
Do you worship idols or "dabble" in the occult?
Do you use the name of Jesus irreverently?
Do you neglect the Sabbath?
Do you dishonor your mother and father?
Do you kill people or do you advocate killing?
Do you commit adultery?
Do you steal?
Do you lie?
Do you live a life obsessed with what others have to the exclusion of being thankful for what you have?

If you answered "No" to every question above - you're living above sin. If you answered yes to one (or more) of those questions... well... now you know the mark you've missed and perhaps some repenting should be considered.

[nahkoe]

You don't have to convince me..I know what sin is and isn't.

I stand by the fact that the entire law was summed up by Jesus as I stated above.

I stand by the fact that there is more to the Torah than the 10 commandments.

And I stand by the fact that the entire law was fulfilled.

And I agree with Neubill that sin is transgression of the Torah.

And I agree with you that the 10 commandments fit rather neatly into the 2 greatest commandments.

Originally Posted by Aquila

Do you worship other god's next to God?
Do you worship idols or "dabble" in the occult?
Do you reverence the name of Jesus?
Do you keep the Sabbath?
Do you honor your mother and father?
Do you kill people or do you advocate killing?
Do you commit adultery?
Do you steal?
Do you lie?
Do you live a life obsessed with what others have to the exclusion of being thankful for what you have?

If you answered "No" to every question above - you're living above sin. If you answered yes to one (or more) of those questions... well... now you know the mark you've missed and perhaps some repenting should be considered.