Hate Of Reformed Theology

[pelathais]

Originally Posted by Socialite

And in this systematic way presented (traditional Calvinism), I don't subscribe.

Though I find value... if that makes sense.

Makes sense to me. I personally find a great deal of value in these ideas. I obviously presented them in a very short handed manner and I certainly did not give any of the points the time they deserve.

Each point actually contains the concise distillation of a great deal of theological pondering and centuries of debates. These people were interested in honing things down to their bare essentials. What Calvinism strove to do in architecture (notice the minimalistic elements in their churches) they also sought to do with their theology. It's a wonderful compendium of knowledge and scholarship which was built up around a very deep reverence for the Word of God.

It happens to be my opinion that they focused on just one side of the coin, however. My own life experience has been just the opposite - too much focus on the "human responsibility" side of the coin.

[crakjak]

Originally Posted by pelathais

Makes sense to me. I personally find a great deal of value in these ideas. I obviously presented them in a very short handed manner and I certainly did not give any of the points the time they deserve.

Each point actually contains the concise distillation of a great deal of theological pondering and centuries of debates. These people were interested in honing things down to their bare essentials. What Calvinism strove to do in architecture (notice the minimalistic elements in their churches) they also sought to do with their theology. It's a wonderful compendium of knowledge and scholarship which was built up around a very deep reverence for the Word of God.

It happens to be my opinion that they focused on just one side of the coin, however. My own life experience has been just the opposite - too much focus on the "human responsibility" side of the coin.

Well said, Pel!

[crakjak]

Originally Posted by Socialite

Figured that was your cue

Of course, addressing Universalism is a different thread on its own.

[crakjak]

Originally Posted by Acoustic

Yes God has all authority I don't disagree. He is all Glory and all Power ... - the rest of this passage is referring to the Day of the Lord where every knee shall bow to Him - this does not mean every person is saved though does it?SDG

I believe that it does, I am what is considered a "convinced Univeralist". I don't see how God could be "all in all" if the majority of humanity has been annihilated or condemned to an eternal torture chamber. However, I still study the subject and all attempts to refute UR, because I am not so arrogant to believe that I could not be wrong.

[crakjak]

Originally Posted by Acoustic

If the doctrine of the penal substitutionary atonement is correct - Christ made a complete payment for our sins wouldn't rejection of his goodness be included in the atoned for sins?

SDG

Certainly!! He is the Savior of the world, not the maybe...or the potential Savior.

[crakjak]

Originally Posted by Socialite

We are measuring this against "the doctrine of penal substitutionary atonement." I know it sounds semantical, but I'd rather wrestle with Scripture itself.

Christ made complete payment.

Though rejecting the Gospel is certainly "sinful," it's an outside-looking-in sin. And the angle with the question you post points more to Universalism than it does Irresistible Grace IMO.

Forgiveness doesn't negate action. To deny the Gospel, our action has placed us outside covenant with Him. We've reached the final climax of rebellion, turning down the only sacrifice for sins (Heb 13:10).

The way I see it so far.... thinking out loud.... and again, certainly not pretending to have all the answers on this one.

It is both, even UR requires that one finally submit to the Savior.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Socialite

Blume, if we read that verse "he doesn't will that any should perish" just literally as we hear it, then none will perish. Period. End of story. If God wills it, that's all there is to it.

Not unless man has a choice in the matter. Calvinism seems to me to be brain candy (it's fun to figure things like God out), as well as an alternative to not understanding that we can overcome sin through the power of the Spirit. I say this about overcoming sin because Calvinists always resort to finally saying sin is simply something we can never overcome. Paul clearly taught differently in Rom 6.

[UnTraditional]

Originally Posted by mfblume

Not unless man has a choice in the matter. Calvinism seems to me to be brain candy (it's fun to figure things like God out), as well as an alternative to not understanding that we can overcome sin through the power of the Spirit. I say this about overcoming sin because Calvinists always resort to finally saying sin is simply something we can never overcome. Paul clearly taught differently in Rom 6.

So, do you believe in sinless perfection capable of being attained while still being in the flesh? Do you believe that, even while on this mortal coil we can stop sinning entirely?

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by UnTraditional

So, do you believe in sinless perfection capable of being attained while still being in the flesh? Do you believe that, even while on this mortal coil we can stop sinning entirely?

I can only say what the scriptures say. So long as we walk after the Spirit, we will not fulfill the lusts of the flesh. And that is possible to maintain. Sin is still in our flesh, but we keep it under within our bodies, and we overcome its influence by the Spirit's empowerment. I never saw a calvinist who looked at it this way.

[crakjak]

Originally Posted by mfblume

I can only say what the scriptures say. So long as we walk after the Spirit, we will not fulfill the lusts of the flesh. And that is possible to maintain. Sin is still in our flesh, but we keep it under within our bodies, and we overcome its influence by the Spirit's empowerment. I never saw a calvinist who looked at it this way.

We as believers can and do still come up short many times, or sin, but I agree we do not fulfill the lusts of the flesh. The Spirit checks us and before sin can mature to fullness we reject it and move on.