Is baptism essential unto salvation?

[Hoovie]

Originally Posted by Adino

Falla39,

Thank you for your thoughts.

Our sins were imputed to Christ and they were, of necessity, removed BEFORE the resurrection (else Christ would not have been raised because our sins were held against him). Thus, as far as the sin imputed to Christ is concerned, it is a matter of history, proven by the resurrection, that the blood has already been applied and effected the removal of our sins in the eyes of God.

Christ would not have been resurrected if those sins imputed to him had not been removed forever from before the eyes of God.

Do you believe in the historic sin remission of the Cross or are you saying the blood applied to our sin imputed to Christ on the Cross was ineffective in removing those sins?

If our sins are remitted in baptism, they were not remitted on the Cross. If the blood of Christ does not deal with our sins until baptism, it did not deal with them on the Cross and this is a huge problem for one holding baptismal remission because Christ rose from the dead proving that all sin imputed to him had been removed.

I wholeheartedly agree with one of your points..... Jesus did finish the work.

Do you believe the work of sin remission was finished on Calvary or was the work of Calvary insufficient requiring a further work of sin remission in baptism?

Adino, this sounds right... but as CJ would say If Christ paid the whole debt for all of mankind, is the unbelief of man greater and more effectual than the cross?

I know I am changing the course of discussion a bit, but your talk of historic sin remission seems to naturally progress into universalism, no?

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Adino

If we say the blood of Christ needs to be applied to our sins AGAIN, we are saying the work of the Cross was inadequate and ineffective. If we say the blood needs to be applied today..... we do not have faith in the finished work of the Cross.

Great issue to speak about in baptism-- where is faith in the finished work of the cross involved with it? I believe baptism does not finish any work, but is involved in what applies the finished work of the cross to our lives.

[Adino]

Originally Posted by Stephen Hoover

Adino, this sounds right... but as CJ would say If Christ paid the whole debt for all of mankind, is the unbelief of man greater and more effectual than the cross?

I know I am changing the course of discussion a bit, but your talk of historic sin remission seems to naturally progress into universalism, no?

Stephen, good to hear from you. The charge of universalism was raised earlier. My response is that, although mans sins have been imputed to Christ and removed at Calvary, condemnation is said to come to the unbeliever (John 3:18), the wrath of God abides in the unbeliever (John 3:36), and the world is to be reproved of sin because of unbelief (John 16:8-9). I would go so far as to suggest that the 'sin unto death' spoken of by John is that of unbelief in, or rejection of, Christ and his finished sin remitting work of the Cross.

Though God has forgiven all sins imputed to Christ, all men remained spiritually dead until the heart converts from unbelief to faith. Only those who believe have passed from spiritual death unto spiritual life (John 3:15-16, John 3:36; John 5:24; John 6:40,47; John 11:25,26).

God has set before us the testimony of his Son. I believe man has two choices. He either:

1) Passes into a state of justification and spiritual LIFE by accepting with a heart of faith the record God gave of his Son setting to seal that God is true.... (John 3:33; 1John 5:13)

OR...

2) Man calls God a liar by rejecting the record he gave of his Son and REMAINS SPIRITUALLY DEAD in a state of condemnation. (1John 5:10-12; John 3:18; John 3:36; John 16:8-9)

[crakjak]

Originally Posted by Adino

Stephen, good to hear from you. The charge of universalism was raised earlier. My response is that, although mans sins have been imputed to Christ and removed at Calvary, condemnation is said to come to the unbeliever (John 3:18), the wrath of God abides in the unbeliever (John 3:36), and the world is to be reproved of sin because of unbelief (John 16:8-9). I would go so far as to suggest that the 'sin unto death' spoken of by John is that of unbelief in, or rejection of, Christ and his finished sin remitting work of the Cross.

Though God has forgiven all sins imputed to Christ, all men remained spiritually dead until the heart converts from unbelief to faith. Only those who believe have passed from spiritual death unto spiritual life (John 3:15-16, John 3:36; John 5:24; John 6:40,47; John 11:25,26).

God has set before us the testimony of his Son. I believe man has two choices. He either:

1) Passes into a state of justification and spiritual LIFE by accepting with a heart of faith the record God gave of his Son setting to seal that God is true.... (John 3:33; 1John 5:13)

OR...

2) Man calls God a liar by rejecting the record he gave of his Son and REMAINS SPIRITUALLY DEAD in a state of condemnation. (1John 5:10-12; John 3:18; John 3:36; John 16:8-9)

I don't disagree with your post Adino, however I do disagree with those that believe that the sinner has no further opportunity to believe after physical death. Man only enters the life of God thru the blood of the Son of God.

[Adino]

Originally Posted by mfblume

Great issue to speak about in baptism-- where is faith in the finished work of the cross involved with it? I believe baptism does not finish any work, but is involved in what applies the finished work of the cross to our lives.

Hello, mfblume. Good to hear from you as well.

The first reason for my posts was to point out what the finished work of the Cross actually was. It seems many have forgotten what was accomplished. In fact, it seems, rather than seeing the Gospel as Good News of an accomplished sin remission, many have redefined the Gospel as Good News that sin remission has only been made possible in baptism. The historic sin remission of the Cross has been moved to some future date of 'appropriation.'

It needs to be strongly driven home that the resurrection is PROOF of a finished historical work concerning the removal of those sins imputed to Christ. The resurrection is PROOF that the blood of Christ has been historically applied to those sins and historically accepted by God as being sufficient. Remission need not take place in baptism if it has already taken place on the Cross. The resurrection proves it did take place on the Cross.

So, how does faith in that finished work come into play? Though man's sins are already remitted in God's eyes, there is a need for a person to come to terms with this reality in his own heart and conscience. Forgiveness (which happened prior to the resurrection) is received (i.e., becomes an accepted personal reality) when man comes to trust that the sin remission of the Cross was effective on his behalf. This doesn't necessarily mean the work of the Cross is 'appropriated,' it happened whether accepted or not, but it does mean man's conscience has come to rest in Truth.

When we come to a personal acknowledgment of Christ and the work of the Cross our heart and/or conscience of sin is purified by faith and made good toward God (Acts 15:9; 1Timothy 1:5; 3:9; Hebrews 9:14; 10:2,22; 1Peter 3:21). This does not mean that our sin is forgiven/remitted for a second time, it simply means our heart has come to rest in faith that our sin was dealt with by God through Christ at Calvary.

The Law shows man that he has sinned and fallen short. The Gospel is Good News that man's sins have been sufficiently dealt with on the Cross. Once a person hears the Good News of Christ he is presented with a life or death choice. He can rest in the finished work of the Cross and pass into life or he can reject the work of the Cross and remain spiritually dead and condemned. This condemnation is not because the work of the Cross will not have already been 'applied' to his sins, but because he will have blasphemed God by calling Him a liar (Mark 3:28; 1John 5:10) and failed to reestablish God's lordship in his life.

Bottom line, I don't think it is so much a matter of 'applying' the finished work of the Cross to man, as it is a matter of man coming to terms with the truthfulness of the testimony of God. Adam rejected God's word in the garden and, in so doing, rejected the sovereignty of God. Man transferred lordship from the Almighty to himself by placing his own word above that of God's (he broke the first commandment by making himself god) resulting in his spiritual death. Mankind has now been given the opportunity to reverse this condemning act by reestablishing the superiority of God's word/testimony. By accepting the Gospel of the finished work of the Cross man transfers lordship back to the Almighty resulting in justification and life.

Adam's sin is reversed, the curse of death removed, eternal life bestowed.

How's that for two cents worth?

[Adino]

Originally Posted by crakjak

I don't disagree with your post Adino, however I do disagree with those that believe that the sinner has no further opportunity to believe after physical death. Man only enters the life of God thru the blood of the Son of God.

After death conversions? Seems like a ghost of a chance.

[Adino]

Given the fact that the resurrection proved:

1) that the sins imputed to Christ had been forever remitted prior to the resurrection (else he would not have risen) and...

2) that it was the 'pre-resurrection' application of the blood of Christ which brought about the 'pre-resurrection' remission...

Can we all agree the doctrine of baptismal sin remission no longer holds any water?

[deltaguitar]

Originally Posted by Adino

Given the fact that the resurrection proved:

1) that the sins imputed to Christ had been forever remitted prior to the resurrection (else he would not have risen) and...

2) that it was the 'pre-resurrection' application of the blood of Christ which brought about the 'pre-resurrection' remission...

Can we all agree the doctrine of baptismal sin remission no longer holds any water?

Adino, I appreciate your knowledge and I am just now reading the last few post on this discussion. In regards to sins being remitted on the cross wouldn't that lead into the doctrine of limited atonement. Meaning that God died for the sins of the elect or that his blood purchased his bride. Just wondering what your thoughts are on limited atonement.

[GrowingPains]

baptize first, questions later.

[Adino]

Originally Posted by deltaguitar

Adino, I appreciate your knowledge and I am just now reading the last few post on this discussion. In regards to sins being remitted on the cross wouldn't that lead into the doctrine of limited atonement. Meaning that God died for the sins of the elect or that his blood purchased his bride. Just wondering what your thoughts are on limited atonement.

Hey Deltaguitar, good to see you again.

I think your answer might be found in one of my earlier posts which points out that the sin which ultimately condemns man is the sin of unbelief, i.e., the sin of having rejected the Gospel message of Christ's sin remitting work of the Cross. Only the man whose heart does not rest in the historic remission of the Cross finds himself condemned before God.

I would emphasize that man is not condemned because of those sins imputed to Christ on the Cross which have been forever historically remitted before God, but because of his disbelief in the Good News of Christ's finished work of sin remission on the Cross. The world is to be reproved of sin because they 'believe not in' Christ. They commit the blasphemous act of rejecting the record God gave of his Son, thereby calling the Almighty a liar and failing to set to seal that God is true.

Though the sins of the world have been forgiven in the eyes of God, man does not stand right before God until he rests in the finished work of Calvary. He remains spiritually dead until given life at the moment of faith.

I believe God so love the world, he gave his only begotten Son (i.e., begotten from the grave), that whosoever (not just a limited few) believes on him will not perish but have life. Those who don't believe are condemned and the wrath of God abides in him. (scriptural references were given in previous posts)