Law was an impossible system to keep

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by mfblume

How does this do away with divine empowerment?

No, I did not say it 'does away with divine empowerment'. I think we are using divine empowerment differently.

Why do you think Paul taught us to come with the understanding that we are are alive to God after he taught that only happens after we die to sin first in 6:13.

Paul wanted to obey law and could not. He also said in Galatians 5 that only so long as we walk after the Spirit do we not fulfill lusts of the flesh. This is what I am saying.

I agree with that. I think we come to the same final conclusion, generally speaking, but through different methods, if that makes any sense?

I see no difference between will power and wanting to do something or wishing it. In my use they're the same thing.

I see a distinction. But let's say there is no distinction, they are the same. That would mean that 'will power' is nothing more than merely wishing or desiring something, and does NOT include the actual choosing or doing of something, correct? So then you would be saying a person can wish all day long but nothing is going to happen until the cross does its work in their heart. Would be a fair representation?

I will deal more thoroughly with your response later when I have the time. But I fail to see how your thoughts prove my proposition wrong.

To will is to desire. But desire is not enough. Then Paul said he served law of sin instead. He wanted to do good. Then he did evil instead. Note why would he follow up on willing to do good with saying he did evil instead? It's like I've personally experienced. Wanting to do good and the more I use natural energy to fulfill that, I do worse. I lived that stuff. He said he willed but instead sinned, indicating the attempt to do that good and failing.

The bolded part is where we disagree. What do you mean 'use natural energy'? A person can want all day long, but they will get nowhere until they actually do, that is, until they actually 'exercise their will'. By 'exercise their will' I do not mean 'strain to accomplish something' like trying to push a car that turns out to be too heavy for you. What I mean is 'actually choose' a course of action. People will not choose a course of action to obey God sincerely until and unless the Spirit of God motivates them. And the Spirit operates via the cross, for both the Spirit of God and the cross are said to be the 'power of God unto salvation'.

I do not understand Paul, in Romans 7, to be speaking about a regenerate person's experience. I believe he is speaking metaphorically (using himself as the 'example'), and is describing the experience of an unregenerate Jew. If a Christian is experiencing Romans 7, it is either because they are Christian in name only, or they have backslidden, or they are the victim of some seriously faulty teaching, or they have failed to 'do the word' even if they have 'heard the word' properly explained. Romans 7 is NOT the 'normal Christian life'.

The entire contrast in the whole epistle of Romans is the contrast between the unregenerate Jew and the regenerated Christian (whether Jew or Gentile). The Jew does not, in fact, obey God, in spite of having access to God's law and being zealous for God's commandments. The (regenerate) Gentile, however, does. The righteousness of the law is fulfilled not in those who are physically circumcised, but in those who are 'of faith', ie Christians, ie regenerated in the new covenant, ie born of the Spirit rather than of the flesh.

So when I look at Romans 7, I do not see a contrast being taught as between 'obeying God by the power of my own will and not succeeding vs obeying God by a supernatural infusion of power and being successful.' Rather, I see a contrast between 'having a mental agreement with God's law as being good and what I ought to do but nevertheless being overcome by my own fleshly desires for forbidden things vs actually choosing to do the will of God because the Spirit of God is leading me and I am following Him rather than my own flesh, made possible because Jesus died on the cross and His death has been applied to my heart.'

'There to my heart was the blood applied, Glory to His Name!'

Obeying God is not, to my mind, like trying to push a car, that is too heavy for my own muscles, so I need a superinfusion of angelic miracle strength to make the car move. Rather, it's more a case of 'do I choose self? Or God? Do I choose to gratify my own desires, or God's? I could do either one, but without the Spirit's gracious influences I will without fail choose my own desires. And with the Spirit's influence, brought to me by the cross, I will choose righteousness and holiness. If I fail to choose aright, it is because my heart has slid backwards from God. I might 'know' God's ways are best, but my HEART, ie my CHOICE, will have turned back from God and succumbed to my own desires.'

Every man when he is tempted is drawn away and enticed by his own desires. And desire when it conceives brings forth sin.

Question: How does lust 'conceive'? It takes two to tango, so there must be something that joins with desire to produce sin. That something is what I call 'will', ie the faculty of choosing, and the actual act of choosing (volition).