We believe in one God,
the Father, the Almighty,
maker of heaven and earth,
of all that is, seen and unseen.
We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ,
the only Son of God, eternally begotten of the Father,
God from God, Light from Light,
true God from true God, begotten, not made,
of one Being with the Father.
Through him all things were made.
For us and for our salvation he came down from heaven:
by the power of the Holy Spirit
he became incarnate from the Virgin Mary,
and was made man.
For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate;
he suffered death and was buried.
On the third day he rose again
in accordance with the Scriptures;
he ascended into heaven
and is seated at the right hand of the Father.
He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead,
and his kingdom will have no end.
We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life,
who proceeds from the Father and the Son.
With the Father and the Son he is worshiped and glorified.
He has spoken through the Prophets.
We believe in one holy catholic and apostolic Church.
We acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins.
We look for the resurrection of the dead,
and the life of the world to come. Amen.
Wanna explain to me what you disagree with?
I'll chime in. From an Apostolic perspective I can't embrace the bolded portions above. If I had to embrace a creed... I'd embrace the Apostle's Creed:
The Apostles' Creed
1. I believe in God the Father, Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth.
2. And in Jesus Christ, His only begotten Son, our Lord;
3. Who was conceived by the Holy Spirit, born of the virgin Mary;
4. Suffered under Pontius Pilate; was crucified, dead, and buried; He descended into hell;
5. The third day He rose again from the dead;
6. He ascended into heaven, and sitteth at the right hand of God the Father Almighty;
7. From thence He shall come to judge the living and the dead.
8. I believe in the Holy Spirit.
9. I believe a holy catholic Church, the communion of saints;
10. The forgiveness of sins;
11. The resurrection of the body;
12. And the life everlasting. AMEN.
Twelve beautiful lines. The creed is actually a perfectly biblical creed. It is also flexible to allow some varience of opinion in some matters (freedom of thought). I considered adopting this creed when I first left the UPCI to establish both a sense of orthodoxy among those I studied with, yet have the credal confession of a more Oneness faith.
So, I have tried to provide an explanation for the Oneness belief to a Trinitarian. He tries to give one for his using three different forms of water, which He said 1.) Ice. 2.) Water. 3.) Air. He tried another one.. where he said to "pretend you are an alien holding a device" and can transform into three things. < Lol. His thoughts being "One alien, three persons." The third, he used his body as an example. He put his hand infront of his face and said "my eyes are are going to tell my hand to move." His hand moves. < He says that's two different things acting but it's still him. ( Like two persons acting but in one essence ). Then he said "my stomach digests food" but I can't tell my stomach to stop doing that. < His thoughts are "part of him is acting that he has no control over" but it is himself. As in, Jesus acts separate from the Father, but is God.
What would you respond with?
All ya hafta do is say "Trinity, Schminity."
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Hebrews 13:23 Know ye that our brother Timothy is set at liberty
I'll chime in. From an Apostolic perspective I can't embrace the bolded portions above. If I had to embrace a creed... I'd embrace the Apostle's Creed:
The Apostles' Creed
1. I believe in God the Father, Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth.
2. And in Jesus Christ, His only begotten Son, our Lord;
3. Who was conceived by the Holy Spirit, born of the virgin Mary;
4. Suffered under Pontius Pilate; was crucified, dead, and buried; He descended into hell;
5. The third day He rose again from the dead;
6. He ascended into heaven, and sitteth at the right hand of God the Father Almighty;
7. From thence He shall come to judge the living and the dead.
8. I believe in the Holy Spirit.
9. I believe a holy catholic Church, the communion of saints;
10. The forgiveness of sins;
11. The resurrection of the body;
12. And the life everlasting. AMEN.
Twelve beautiful lines. The creed is actually a perfectly biblical creed. It is also flexible to allow some varience of opinion in some matters (freedom of thought). I considered adopting this creed when I first left the UPCI to establish both a sense of orthodoxy among those I studied with, yet have the credal confession of a more Oneness faith.
I grew up reciting the long version in Mass every Sunday and know every word... I love the shorter version too Aquila but every time I think about it now it plays in my head with the voice of Mac Powell.
I grew up reciting the long version in Mass every Sunday and know every word... I love the shorter version too Aquila but every time I think about it now it plays in my head with the voice of Mac Powell.
And here is my objection to this kind of thinking... We have turned the faith of people who love God into a reason for contempt. If I never hear the words "If he didn't get baptised in Jesus Name, all he got was wet" again in my lifetime it will be too soon...
With all the God haters and unbelievers out there it seems we could leave people who are doing their best to love God alone... sheesh!
I always remember that little thing Jesus said... "If they are for me they can't be against me"... something like that...
I'll chime in. From an Apostolic perspective I can't embrace the bolded portions above. If I had to embrace a creed... I'd embrace the Apostle's Creed:
The Apostles' Creed
1. I believe in God the Father, Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth.
2. And in Jesus Christ, His only begotten Son, our Lord;
3. Who was conceived by the Holy Spirit, born of the virgin Mary;
4. Suffered under Pontius Pilate; was crucified, dead, and buried; He descended into hell;
5. The third day He rose again from the dead;
6. He ascended into heaven, and sitteth at the right hand of God the Father Almighty;
7. From thence He shall come to judge the living and the dead.
8. I believe in the Holy Spirit.
9. I believe a holy catholic Church, the communion of saints;
10. The forgiveness of sins;
11. The resurrection of the body;
12. And the life everlasting. AMEN.
Twelve beautiful lines. The creed is actually a perfectly biblical creed. It is also flexible to allow some varience of opinion in some matters (freedom of thought). I considered adopting this creed when I first left the UPCI to establish both a sense of orthodoxy among those I studied with, yet have the credal confession of a more Oneness faith.
I'm not sure why you object to last 2 things you bolded.
1. Surely if Jesus is God then he in some sense came down from heaven for he was not with us before the incarnation.
2. The bible calls Jesus begotten. And if you believe he was God then he surely wasn't made.
I think you don't really have as much of a problem with those 2 bolds as you said you do...
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You better watch out before I blitzkrieg your thread cause I'm the Thread Nazi now!
And here is my objection to this kind of thinking... We have turned the faith of people who love God into a reason for contempt. If I never hear the words "If he didn't get baptised in Jesus Name, all he got was wet" again in my lifetime it will be too soon...
With all the God haters and unbelievers out there it seems we could leave people who are doing their best to love God alone... sheesh!
I always remember that little thing Jesus said... "If they are for me they can't be against me"... something like that...
We're all on a journey. We have to remember that though some are ahead of others on this journey, and while some understand truths of Scripture more perfectly, those who don't agree are also often on the same journey.
Most early Apostolics received the Holy Ghost while still Trinitarian. Many still receive the Holy Ghost while Trinitarian. Those who do, mainly Charismatics, have a view of God that is more modalistic than Trinitarian, though they call themselves Trinitarian. Is this the Spirit revealing truth? I think it is. Many on this forum can testify that they were Trinitarian at one time and that they had experiences in God prior to becoming Oneness. The very same God they experienced led them lovingly into the Oneness camp. They too should remember that bend in their journey and be merciful to others who have yet to arrive at that juncture.
I'm very tolerant to anyone who states that Jesus is God and is one with the Father. Now, if they say that Jesus was just a man or that He is a lesser being... I reject them instantly, unless they demonstrate a willingess to see the Mighty God in Christ.
I'm not sure why you object to last 2 things you bolded.
1. Surely if Jesus is God then he in some sense came down from heaven for he was not with us before the incarnation.
2. The bible calls Jesus begotten. And if you believe he was God then he surely wasn't made.
I think you don't really have as much of a problem with those 2 bolds as you said you do...
You're right. I don't take a MAJOR issue on those points. However, my issue is that they tend to lend themselves to the doctrine of the Eternal Son of God, thus proclaiming a distinct eternality and pre-existence of His person. The Bible states that Jesus was,
Galatians 4:4
But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,
The man Jesus Christ, was "made".
The distinct "consciousness" that we see in the Son that prays to the Father is pure humanity. It didn't pre-exist as a separate person. He wasn't begotten into the world, he was "made of a woman". The Logos, the very life of God, the living expression of His being that permiates all things, was made flesh. At some point that flesh developed a subsistent conscious reality that didn't pre-exist the incarnation.
Therefore, I have some issues with those particular statements. The Apostle's Creed simply reads:
The Apostles' Creed
1. I believe in God the Father, Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth.
2. And in Jesus Christ, His only begotten Son, our Lord;
3. Who was conceived by the Holy Spirit, born of the virgin Mary;
4. Suffered under Pontius Pilate; was crucified, dead, and buried; He descended into hell;
5. The third day He rose again from the dead;
6. He ascended into heaven, and sitteth at the right hand of God the Father Almighty;
7. From thence He shall come to judge the living and the dead.
8. I believe in the Holy Spirit.
9. I believe a holy catholic Church, the communion of saints;
10. The forgiveness of sins;
11. The resurrection of the body;
12. And the life everlasting. AMEN.
Thus the Apostle's Creed doesn't lend itself to proclaiming that the Son of God pre-existed as a separate person from the Father. The actual words of the creed are actually in harmony with Oneness teaching.
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