Tha Fall of Man and the Law of Sin

[bbyrd009]

Originally Posted by Livelystone

How repugnant...

Blessings anyway

Doug

Ah, thank you for the timely demo there. Look, impeaching the Doctrine of Original Sin does not deny any of your points; it merely dismantles the notion, fostered by those you have not yet become aware of, but in whose thrall your are completely, that you are a worthless thing, and God does not love you. Sure, it isn't put that way, but that is the end result.

It describes our fascination with skulls. It's why we like to wear black. And yet, you could ask 100 people "What happened at the Council of Trent?" and I'm willing to bet that you would not get a single correct reply. Wadr, I don't think you could answer correctly. The answer has irrevocably changed your life forever; and the knowledge has been intentionally obscured from you.

Christ died for our sins, which every human will inevitably commit, due to Adam's sin nature; but this has been twisted into a dark, indefinable 'Doctrine' meant only to enslave. Peace to you.

[Livelystone]

Originally Posted by bbyrd009

Ah, thank you for the timely demo there. Look, impeaching the Doctrine of Original Sin does not deny any of your points; it merely dismantles the notion, fostered by those you have not yet become aware of, but in whose thrall your are completely, that you are a worthless thing, and God does not love you. Sure, it isn't put that way, but that is the end result.

It describes our fascination with skulls. It's why we like to wear black. And yet, you could ask 100 people "What happened at the Council of Trent?" and I'm willing to bet that you would not get a single correct reply. Wadr, I don't think you could answer correctly. The answer has irrevocably changed your life forever; and the knowledge has been intentionally obscured from you.

Christ died for our sins, which every human will inevitably commit, due to Adam's sin nature; but this has been twisted into a dark, indefinable 'Doctrine' meant only to enslave. Peace to you.

Peace to you as well

I'm not getting everything you are saying but I will take the blame for that. Since you seem to be a little more perceptive than I am let me try this approach.

Sin is an ugly thing anyway you look at it until viewed as part of the overall plan that includes the future for all of mankind and not just a few individuals. (As in Jesus is the saviour of the world and especially of those who believe; 1 Timothy 4:10)

Because God is a just and balanced God, everything has an opposite therefore we have the knowledge of both good and evil. Because the law of polarity is a universal law meaning that opposites within a given atmosphere must attract each other. Consequently and by a "universal law" Satan had to appear in the garden as well as he had to try to tempt Jesus. In other words the appearance of evil is a given the same as darkness follows after light. Quite obviously God being the author of all universal law knew this before the beginning

To make a long story short, (for now) because evil was successful in deceiving Eve who Adam chose to follow over the commandment of God, evil took on sin that brought on a condemnation of death to the one flesh that Adam and Eve became. Amen? i think so!

Because sin was condemned to death all evil is going to die here on earth because this is where it has been sentenced to death thus creating a place where father and son can abide together where evil will never appear again because it has already died the sentence it was given here.

God was not caught by surprise when Adam sinned, and for that matter Adam's sin was part of the plan that would result in evil being sentenced to death. In my opinion once we understand this we can go about seeing how God's ultimate plan for man had to be kept hidden throughout the ages. However when fully understood by those who will be first to overcome sin, will be shown onto the world by the church who through knowledge and grace from above has already overcome sin.

[Luke]

Originally Posted by Livelystone

Sin is an ugly thing anyway you look at it until viewed as part of the overall plan that includes the future for all of mankind and not just a few individuals. (As in Jesus is the saviour of the world and especially of those who believe; 1 Timothy 4:10).

Wow where to start. First off there is no angle at which sin can be viewed to make it anything but ugly and terrible.

Secondly sin has no redeeming qualities and as to how it relates to the whole world is clearly shown in the bible as:

Those who through faith in the death of Jesus on the cross have had it removed they go to heaven.

Those who choose to live in sin and die in sin they go to eternal punishment in the lake of fire for eternity.

please show me how sin brightens that picture at all?

Originally Posted by Livelystone

God was not caught by surprise when Adam sinned, and for that matter Adam's sin was part of the plan that would result in evil being sentenced to death.

To say that God planned for Adam to sin is 100% false and can be easily be shown so in two basic ways:

1. This makes God not Adam the one who chose for sin.

2. This would make God not mankind responsible for ending up hell.

Originally Posted by Livelystone

In my opinion once we understand this we can go about seeing how God's ultimate plan for man had to be kept hidden throughout the ages. However when fully understood by those who will be first to overcome sin, will be shown onto the world by the church who through knowledge and grace from above has already overcome sin.

Please further explain what you aresaying here.

[Livelystone]

Originally Posted by Luke

Wow where to start. First off there is no angle at which sin can be viewed to make it anything but ugly and terrible.

Secondly sin has no redeeming qualities and as to how it relates to the whole world is clearly shown in the bible as:

Those who through faith in the death of Jesus on the cross have had it removed they go to heaven.

Those who choose to live in sin and die in sin they go to eternal punishment in the lake of fire for eternity.

please show me how sin brightens that picture at all?

It is not a case that sin brightens the picture but because evil took on sin that resulted in evil being sentenced to death. The whole time the seed of the serpent is consuming the dust of the earth that makes up our physical bodies, the thorn in our flesh that is Satan's messenger in us aka the law of sin is already self-destructing. This is the beauty within God's plan; because evil already had to exist in the spiritual realm, but then when it appeared in the physical realm, by becoming sin it was sentenced to death.

The commandment given to Adam was if they ate of the tree of knowledge of good and evil was that day they would surely die. They died physically that day because they did not live out the 1000 years that is the day. They also died spiritually that day by being separated from God because of their sin that took on death and separation from God.

While on one hand death is a result of sin; the death that is a result of sin brings forth more sin because once one leaves the presence of God that is the only thing that can withhold sin, sin rules over them. Therefore, the sting of death is sin because once we are separated from God we are in a state of death and there is nothing left to withhold sin.

However even when sin continues unchecked in its cancerous assault on humans it is self-destructing because the only place it can exist is in the unclean spirit and soul of Adam and Eve who became one flesh.

Originally Posted by Luke

To say that God planned for Adam to sin is 100% false and can be easily be shown so in two basic ways:

1. This makes God not Adam the one who chose for sin.

2. This would make God not mankind responsible for ending up hell.


Please further explain what you are saying here.

Because as the Scriptures say before the foundations of the earth were laid the morning stars jumped for joy, there was a plan made for evil to be destroyed (learning to hate evil is part of the beginning of wisdom). In the begining Adam could not sin because both he, and God who cannot sin, were both of the same Spirit. The statement in the verse saying they communed in the cool of the day translated means they communed in the spirit because the same spirit that gave Adam life from the breath of God was the spirit of God.

As long as the Spirit of God was in charge in Adam, he could not sin. Therefore there had to be a change made that would allow Adam to sin that is something he was not capable of doing when first created.

This is where the phrase "made subject to vanity" comes into play that when translated means Adam was altered so that he could not perform as he had been originally created to perform.

Romans 8:20
For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,

The above verse speaks of when God changed Adam that made Adam's sin a foregone conclusion, and not a matter of if but a matter of when.

This happened when God caused a deep sleep to come upon Adam and a bone was taken from him that was used to form Eve. To try to shorten this long story a little bit I'm going to hope that this point you can see that at this point the flesh of Adam was given a mind and a voice of its own that is something that was not coming from Adam before he sinned, because before Eve, Adam only followed the mind of Christ he was first created with that could not sin.

However when Adam followed the voice of Eve who that was taken from his flesh that used the senses within the flesh to determine what was good or bad, instead of continuing on with following the commandment of God, Adam deliberately made a decision contrary to the commandment of God, therefore sin and death entered into all of mankind

However, his decision resulted in evil becoming sin that got it sentenced to death. Consequently, and for the first time since both good and evil were both created by God,(Isaiah 45:7) evil started to destroy itself.

The plan was/is absolutely brilliant and only God in heaven could ever come up with such a plan (why the morning stars, aka sons of God jumped for joy; Job 38:7 ) let alone put it into effect (or as the verse above says, "subject the same unto hope)

God has accepted responsibility for man's sin and is why He appeared on earth in human form to suffer and die for us. We can deal with what hell is all about at a later time, meanwhile if you would do a search on the times the word "hell" appears in Psalms and how it is used will help.

Blessings

Doug

[Luke]

Originally Posted by Livelystone

It is not a case that sin brightens the picture but because evil took on sin that resulted in evil being sentenced to death. The whole time the seed of the serpent is consuming the dust of the earth that makes up our physical bodies, the thorn in our flesh that is Satan's messenger in us aka the law of sin is already self-destructing. This is the beauty within God's plan; because evil already had to exist in the spiritual realm, but then when it appeared in the physical realm, by becoming sin it was sentenced to death.

Are you trying to tie the heretical doctrine of the serpent and eve doing things that resulted in the serpent seed into the correct and biblical doctrine of original sin which states that in adam we all fell?

No where does the Bible ever say that the thorn in Pauls flesh was the law of sin. If you will remember Paul says in in Romans 8:2 that he was made free from the law of sin. How then in light of romans 8:2 can you say that the thorn in Paul's flesh that he prayed for God to remove and God rather than freeing Paul from the thorn gave him the grace to bear it? Did Paul call God a liar by saying God freed him from the law of sin while God said the thorn remained, or are the law of sin and the thorn two different things?

Also you are supposeing that evil eisted before the creation of the earth and for this there is no biblical support.

Originally Posted by Livelystone

The commandment given to Adam was if they ate of the tree of knowledge of good and evil was that day they would surely die. They died physically that day because they did not live out the 1000 years that is the day. They also died spiritually that day by being separated from God because of their sin that took on death and separation from God.

Where do you get they were to live for a thousand years?
They died physically in that they lost thier immortality or to put it more simply they became suseptible to death.

Originally Posted by Livelystone

While on one hand death is a result of sin; the death that is a result of sin brings forth more sin because once one leaves the presence of God that is the only thing that can withhold sin, sin rules over them. Therefore, the sting of death is sin because once we are separated from God we are in a state of death and there is nothing left to withhold sin.

However even when sin continues unchecked in its cancerous assault on humans it is self-destructing because the only place it can exist is in the unclean spirit and soul of Adam and Eve who became one flesh.

I agree that man became separated from God In that they became sinners but to say that this is the only death that is the result of sin sounds like you are saying that God created man to die.

Sin is not self destructing at all it is doing its job which is to carry out satans plan to kill steal and destroy.

What did you mean by this statement " is in the unclean spirit and soul of Adam and Eve who became one flesh" ?

Originally Posted by Livelystone

Because as the Scriptures say before the foundations of the earth were laid the morning stars jumped for joy, there was a plan made for evil to be destroyed (learning to hate evil is part of the beginning of wisdom). In the begining Adam could not sin because both he, and God who cannot sin, were both of the same Spirit. The statement in the verse saying they communed in the cool of the day translated means they communed in the spirit because the same spirit that gave Adam life from the breath of God was the spirit of God.
As long as the Spirit of God was in charge in Adam, he could not sin. Therefore there had to be a change made that would allow Adam to sin that is something he was not capable of doing when first created.

The bible does not say that "before the foundations of the earth were laid the morning stars jumped for joy."

But what it does say is:

Job 38:4 Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding.

5 Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it?

6 Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof;

7 When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?


You are coming very close to making Adam into a God by saying that he and God were of the same Spirit, and what on earth do you mean by saying that God was of any Spirit? God was and is eternal the causeless first cause who came from nowhere and is going nowere but fills everywhere. No one or nothing made God and God did not originate from anywhere God has simply always been.

Please show me the verse that says adam could not sin in the beginnig.
Adam was not created to sin and he was not created sinful rather Adam was created with the ability to choose to sin and was thus a free moral agent.

Originally Posted by Livelystone

This is where the phrase "made subject to vanity" comes into play that when translated means Adam was altered so that he could not perform as he had been originally created to perform.

Romans 8:20
For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,

The above verse speaks of when God changed Adam that made Adam's sin a foregone conclusion, and not a matter of if but a matter of when.

No the verse you are speaking of has nothing whatsoever to do with any change happening to adam so that he would sin. Please explain to me useing the context of the scripture cited how this verse has anything to do with a change being made in adam?

You are again makeing God the author of sin and blameing all the sin on earth both past and present on God. That is blasphemous!!!!

God is holy, just and pure but you make Him out to be the originator of sin!!!!

Originally Posted by Livelystone

This happened when God caused a deep sleep to come upon Adam and a bone was taken from him that was used to form Eve. To try to shorten this long story a little bit I'm going to hope that this point you can see that at this point the flesh of Adam was given a mind and a voice of its own that is something that was not coming from Adam before he sinned, because before Eve, Adam only followed the mind of Christ he was first created with that could not sin.

However when Adam followed the voice of Eve who that was taken from his flesh that used the senses within the flesh to determine what was good or bad, instead of continuing on with following the commandment of God, Adam deliberately made a decision contrary to the commandment of God, therefore sin and death entered into all of mankind

So you are basicly saying that before EVE was made that Adam could not sin?
(Have you told your wife About this doctrine lol )
The Bible says that:

Gen.2:18 And the Lord God said, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him.

21 And the Lord God caused a deep sleep to fall upon Adam, and he slept: and he took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh instead thereof;

22 And the rib, which the Lord God had taken from man, made he a woman, and brought her unto the man.

23 And Adam said, This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man.

24 Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh.

25 And they were both naked, the man and his wife, and were not ashamed.

The reasons that the Bible gives for Eve being made was because it was not good for man to be alone and to be a helpmeet for adam. Where do you get that this gave adam the ability to sin? How can God call her a helpmeet if she is going to cause the destruction of him?

Also to say that adam could not sin before Eve was made is to throw out the verses that proceed her forming.

Gen.2:15 And the Lord God took the man, and put him into the garden of Eden to dress it and to keep it.

16 And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:

17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

The command was given before woman so the possibility to sin existed before woman.

Originally Posted by Livelystone

However, his decision resulted in evil becoming sin that got it sentenced to death. Consequently, and for the first time since both good and evil were both created by God,(Isaiah 45:7) evil started to destroy itself.

The plan was/is absolutely brilliant and only God in heaven could ever come up with such a plan (why the morning stars, aka sons of God jumped for joy; Job 38:7 ) let alone put it into effect (or as the verse above says, "subject the same unto hope)

The verese in Isaiah 45:7 is not saying that God created sin all that one has to do is read the verses around it to see that the evil that is here spoken of is war not sin. This is speaking of the invasion of babylon by the medes and the persians. The evil here is being contrasted by peace not righteousness.

Originally Posted by Livelystone

God has accepted responsibility for man's sin and is why He appeared on earth in human form to suffer and die for us. We can deal with what hell is all about at a later time, meanwhile if you would do a search on the times the word "hell" appears in Psalms and how it is used will help.

Blessings

Doug

Where on earth does the Bible ever say that God was responsible for mans sin or where does it every say that God said it was all His fault?

[Livelystone]

Originally Posted by Luke

Are you trying to tie the heretical doctrine of the serpent and eve doing things that resulted in the serpent seed into the correct and biblical doctrine of original sin which states that in adam we all fell?

Are you coyly trying to suggest that I am implying that Eve had sex with the serpent? For your information by consuming the seeds of the knowledge of good and evil found in the fruit from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, good and evil appeared in Adam and Eve that was manifested physically in Abel and Cain.

Originally Posted by Luke

No where does the Bible ever say that the thorn in Pauls flesh was the law of sin. If you will remember Paul says in in Romans 8:2 that he was made free from the law of sin. How then in light of romans 8:2 can you say that the thorn in Paul's flesh that he prayed for God to remove and God rather than freeing Paul from the thorn gave him the grace to bear it? Did Paul call God a liar by saying God freed him from the law of sin while God said the thorn remained, or are the law of sin and the thorn two different things?

Please do not even suggest that I would ever imply anything bad about the most prolific writer of the New Testament. Fair enough?

Paul called the thorn in his flesh the messenger of Satan able to humble him in the same manner that he called the law of sin in him to be what caused him to do what he did not want to do, and not do what he wanted to do that was to follow his desire to serve God with his mind. Amen? I think so!

It is only when the law of faith in Paul was in control that Paul was free from the law of sin and the same applies to us. When a Christian yields to the lusts in their flesh left from the memories of sin done in one's past they commit a sin. Until they repent from this sin, the principality of the law of sin will remain in control of them. A person's body does not do what the mind does not tell it to do. Therefore, when a Christian commits a sin it is because the mind of Christ who cannot sin was not ruling over them but instead the mind of man who they were before coming to Christ has regained control the mind. This is the lesson within the parable of the unclean spirit leaving a person's heart but going no further than the dry places that are made up of the dust of the earth that make up our physical body where it unites with all of the former lusts still in the flesh and together they retake the person's heart leaving the Christian worst off than they were before ever receiving the Holy Spirit that was the cause of the unclean spirit departing the heart in the first place.(Because light displaces darkness)

Originally Posted by Luke

Also you are supposeing that evil eisted before the creation of the earth and for this there is no biblical support.

Wrong! God has always had knowledge of all things that includes the knowledge of evil.

The Bible says God created light and dark along with good and evil. Quite obviously evil had to be created before the serpent appeared to tempt Eve. Amen? I think so!

Originally Posted by Luke

Where do you get they were to live for a thousand years? They died physically in that they lost thier immortality or to put it more simply they became suseptible to death.

The Bible says a day is 1000 years and 1000 years is as a day. They did not die physically at the time they committed their sin but only spiritually seen when because of their sin God gave them the boot out of the garden. Adam did not live to be 1000 years old so he did die both spiritually and physically "in that day".

Originally Posted by Luke

I agree that man became separated from God In that they became sinners but to say that this is the only death that is the result of sin sounds like you are saying that God created man to die.

If not for sin Adam would have never died. Adam was created in the same sinless condition Jesus was born in. The only reason why Jesus died in the flesh was because he chose to. However, because his death was a violation of the law made his resurrection a given.

Originally Posted by Luke

Sin is not self destructing at all it is doing its job which is to carry out satans plan to kill steal and destroy.

Sin is condemned to death because in Adam all men die because of the sin within them that is consuming their flesh causing their ultimate death when the spirit leaves the body taking the soul with it to be judged. This should not be so hard that you cannot see it.

Originally Posted by Luke

What did you mean by this statement " is in the unclean spirit and soul of Adam and Eve who became one flesh" ?

Adam and Eve represent the spirit and soul that every person is born with. Adam is also the name given to the human race and as long as a person remains "in Adam" they will die. However through Christ's a.k.a. the "last Adam," they are made alive as passing from death unto life. We are all born under the curse of death and at the point after death all are judged for better or for worse.

Originally Posted by Luke

The bible does not say that "before the foundations of the earth were laid the morning stars jumped for joy."

But what it does say is:

7 When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?

Who do you suppose the morning stars were? Is not Jesus both the MorningStar and the son of God? The spirit of the word that reflects the nature of the verse is that the morning stars and sons of God are the same unless you want to go by the letter of the word and assume that stars sing and snakes talk. Until you leave the letter of the word behind you will never understand the allegory's in the Old Testament that are for our edification. You don't have to believe me but instaed go see what Paul has to say about that.

Originally Posted by Luke

You are coming very close to making Adam into a God by saying that he and God were of the same Spirit, and what on earth do you mean by saying that God was of any Spirit? God was and is eternal the causeless first cause who came from nowhere and is going nowere but fills everywhere. No one or nothing made God and God did not originate from anywhere God has simply always been.

God is a spirit and the breath of God is the same as when Jesus breathed on his chosen disciples and said receive ye the Holy Ghost. Amen? I think so.

Originally Posted by Luke

Please show me the verse that says adam could not sin in the beginnig.
Adam was not created to sin and he was not created sinful rather Adam was created with the ability to choose to sin and was thus a free moral agent.

Adam was created with the mind of Christ because he was born of the Spirit of God and the mind of Christ cannot sin.......... EVER!!!

Originally Posted by Luke

No the verse you are speaking of has nothing whatsoever to do with any change happening to adam so that he would sin. Please explain to me useing the context of the scripture cited how this verse has anything to do with a change being made in adam?

Suggest you look up the definition for the phrase “made subject to vanity”. Added to the words “not willingly” plainly says that Adam was not part of the plan but this was something done by God to Adam that I've already explained.

Originally Posted by Luke

You are again makeing God the author of sin and blameing all the sin on earth both past and present on God. That is blasphemous!!!!

God is holy, just and pure but you make Him out to be the originator of sin!!!!

You are not qualified to charge me with anything let alone blasphemy.

A lot of your statements reflect your ignorance of the Scriptures that plainly say God created evil and gives plenty of examples when God uses evil to bring wayward children back into line. For that matter he even called Nebuchadnezzar to be his servant while he was performing a bloodbath in Israel out of God's chosen people.

Originally Posted by Luke

So you are basicly saying that before EVE was made that Adam could not sin?
(Have you told your wife About this doctrine lol )

Why do you suppose Satan approached Eve instead of Adam? Maybe you should ask your wife!

Originally Posted by Luke

The command was given before woman so the possibility to sin existed before woman.

I erased all of your remarks and verses that are totally irrelevant. However I left this one with the hope you can see the errors within you're thinking. If Adam had sinned before Eve was formed he would've already been kicked out of the garden. The term “Garden of Eden” translated means “fence of God” because within that fence only life that is in harmony with God can exist, and that is why Adam got kicked out of the garden because sin destroys the harmony between God and man.

Originally Posted by Luke

The verese in Isaiah 45:7 is not saying that God created sin all that one has to do is read the verses around it to see that the evil that is here spoken of is war not sin. This is speaking of the invasion of babylon by the medes and the persians. The evil here is being contrasted by peace not righteousness.

Are you trying to tell me that the Bible does not say that God created evil? Who created the tree of the knowledge of good and evil?

Do you really put any thought into what you are saying? To be frank it sounds like you are rearranging in your own words what you heard from someone else.

Originally Posted by Luke

Where on earth does the Bible ever say that God was responsible for mans sin or where does it every say that God said it was all His fault?

Quite obviously God was able to make Jesus without sin and Adam was created of the same conditions (the Holy Spirit and physical matter that had not been defiled) that Jesus was born in when the Holy Spirit was deposited in the womb of the Virgin Mary.

Without Adam being altered by God when he was made subject to vanity he had about as much chance of committing a sin as Jesus did.

Here is a question for you that will hopefully get you thinking in the right direction. Being as Jesus was the spirit and soul of God manifested in human flesh, do you think it was possible for Jesus to have committed a sin and never have become the lamb sent to save the world from sin?

If you think Jesus being the spirit and soul of God manifested in flesh coming from a virgin could, sin then you are saying God can sin and are void of any knowledge of spiritual things

On the other hand if you realize that Jesus could not sin, and that Adam was created in the same sinless conditions that Jesus was born in....... then you have come a long ways since your first post on this thread.

I hope that is the case

Blessings

Doug

[bbyrd009]

Originally Posted by Luke

...the correct and biblical doctrine of original sin which states that in adam we all fell?

There is no doctrine of Original Sin in Scripture. It was invented by Augustine, who personally did not believe it, and adopted by the Council of Trent. I'm convinced that Satan then went to some lengths to obscure all this, so that you now argue points for OS that are pertinent to the Law of sin and death. Original Sin is a myth; a construct. A fatal premise. Period.

[larrylyates]

Originally Posted by Livelystone

It is not a case that sin brightens the picture but because evil took on sin that resulted in evil being sentenced to death. The whole time the seed of the serpent is consuming the dust of the earth that makes up our physical bodies, the thorn in our flesh that is Satan's messenger in us aka the law of sin is already self-destructing. This is the beauty within God's plan; because evil already had to exist in the spiritual realm, but then when it appeared in the physical realm, by becoming sin it was sentenced to death.

The commandment given to Adam was if they ate of the tree of knowledge of good and evil was that day they would surely die. They died physically that day because they did not live out the 1000 years that is the day. They also died spiritually that day by being separated from God because of their sin that took on death and separation from God.

While on one hand death is a result of sin; the death that is a result of sin brings forth more sin because once one leaves the presence of God that is the only thing that can withhold sin, sin rules over them. Therefore, the sting of death is sin because once we are separated from God we are in a state of death and there is nothing left to withhold sin.

However even when sin continues unchecked in its cancerous assault on humans it is self-destructing because the only place it can exist is in the unclean spirit and soul of Adam and Eve who became one flesh.




Because as the Scriptures say before the foundations of the earth were laid the morning stars jumped for joy, there was a plan made for evil to be destroyed (learning to hate evil is part of the beginning of wisdom). In the begining Adam could not sin because both he, and God who cannot sin, were both of the same Spirit. The statement in the verse saying they communed in the cool of the day translated means they communed in the spirit because the same spirit that gave Adam life from the breath of God was the spirit of God.

As long as the Spirit of God was in charge in Adam, he could not sin. Therefore there had to be a change made that would allow Adam to sin that is something he was not capable of doing when first created.

This is where the phrase "made subject to vanity" comes into play that when translated means Adam was altered so that he could not perform as he had been originally created to perform.

Romans 8:20
For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,

The above verse speaks of when God changed Adam that made Adam's sin a foregone conclusion, and not a matter of if but a matter of when.

This happened when God caused a deep sleep to come upon Adam and a bone was taken from him that was used to form Eve. To try to shorten this long story a little bit I'm going to hope that this point you can see that at this point the flesh of Adam was given a mind and a voice of its own that is something that was not coming from Adam before he sinned, because before Eve, Adam only followed the mind of Christ he was first created with that could not sin.

However when Adam followed the voice of Eve who that was taken from his flesh that used the senses within the flesh to determine what was good or bad, instead of continuing on with following the commandment of God, Adam deliberately made a decision contrary to the commandment of God, therefore sin and death entered into all of mankind

However, his decision resulted in evil becoming sin that got it sentenced to death. Consequently, and for the first time since both good and evil were both created by God,(Isaiah 45:7) evil started to destroy itself.

The plan was/is absolutely brilliant and only God in heaven could ever come up with such a plan (why the morning stars, aka sons of God jumped for joy; Job 38:7 ) let alone put it into effect (or as the verse above says, "subject the same unto hope)

God has accepted responsibility for man's sin and is why He appeared on earth in human form to suffer and die for us. We can deal with what hell is all about at a later time, meanwhile if you would do a search on the times the word "hell" appears in Psalms and how it is used will help.

Blessings

Doug

I have pondered whether to even respond to this thread. Luke has already addressed the major points quite well. What you present is a Biblical and theological mess. Your entire argument is a convoluted tangle of philosophical speculation and faulty exegesis. You even have me agreeing with bbyrd and that in and of itself speaks volumes.

After reading Luke's rebuttal, there is very little I have to add. He covered the main flaws. But in re-reading just now I noticed your response to bbyrd: "All I can say is please present your case carefully so by the time you are done you will realize what I have shared has God's approval."

That my friend is hubris at best and certainly a deception. No one speaking with 'God's approval" could have written the following:

“The commandment given to Adam was if they ate of the tree of knowledge of good and evil was that day they would surely die. They died physically that day because they did not live out the 1000 years that is the day. They also died spiritually that day by being separated from God because of their sin that took on death and separation from God.”

“In the beginning Adam could not sin because both he, and God who cannot sin, were both of the same Spirit.”

“As long as the Spirit of God was in charge in Adam, he could not sin. Therefore there had to be a change made that would allow Adam to sin that is something he was not capable of doing when first created.”

“This is where the phrase "made subject to vanity" comes into play that when translated means Adam was altered so that he could not perform as he had been originally created to perform.”

Matthew 24:11
And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.

2 Peter 2:1
But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.

1 John 4:1
Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.

I am not sure of your motive in posting. I choose to believe that you are sincere. But my friend you are seriously deceived in your theology and your view of God is horrendous.

[Livelystone]

Originally Posted by larrylyates

I have pondered whether to even respond to this thread. Luke has already addressed the major points quite well. What you present is a Biblical and theological mess. Your entire argument is a convoluted tangle of philosophical speculation and faulty exegesis. You even have me agreeing with bbyrd and that in and of itself speaks volumes.

After reading Luke's rebuttal, there is very little I have to add. He covered the main flaws. But in re-reading just now I noticed your response to bbyrd: "All I can say is please present your case carefully so by the time you are done you will realize what I have shared has God's approval."

That my friend is hubris at best and certainly a deception. No one speaking with 'God's approval" could have written the following:

“The commandment given to Adam was if they ate of the tree of knowledge of good and evil was that day they would surely die. They died physically that day because they did not live out the 1000 years that is the day. They also died spiritually that day by being separated from God because of their sin that took on death and separation from God.”

“In the beginning Adam could not sin because both he, and God who cannot sin, were both of the same Spirit.”

“As long as the Spirit of God was in charge in Adam, he could not sin. Therefore there had to be a change made that would allow Adam to sin that is something he was not capable of doing when first created.”

“This is where the phrase "made subject to vanity" comes into play that when translated means Adam was altered so that he could not perform as he had been originally created to perform.”

Matthew 24:11
And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.

2 Peter 2:1
But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.

1 John 4:1
Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.

I am not sure of your motive in posting. I choose to believe that you are sincere. But my friend you are seriously deceived in your theology and your view of God is horrendous.

Larry, I rebuke you in Jesus name!......... and after what you have posted for sure I am not your friend

You are totally off the wall and without any support for saying what you have accused me of. However, I must thank you for being so adamant because before reading your post I was actually thinking rather highly of you. Thank you for showing me my error and that you are no different from most others who cannot tell their left hand from the right hand about the things of God.

Furthermore, you say you believe in signs and wonders as evidence to God's approval and blessings on a chosen people; Amen? I think so!

Do you have testimony of God's healing people of terminal diseases by you laying hands and praying over them, do you have testimony of God raising the dead by you laying hands and praying over someone? Because I do and have the witnesses to back my words.

Before you start making more false accusations about false prophets etc.etc, consider this. When someone dies the spirit goes back to God, and only God can determine whether or not the spirit should return to the person who left. In other words to make it simple enough for you to be able to understand through your over-educated level of intelligence, Satan cannot raise the dead!

You are a perfect example of how since the time when the apostles were at the helm, the seminaries of man and their man made degrees have been leading the children of God into false worship for so long now that evil is called good and good is called evil,

You should have remained silent and not gone with the false prophet charges you have made against me........ Without repenting this will not work out well for you!

Doug

[larrylyates]

Originally Posted by Livelystone

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Larry, I rebuke you in Jesus name!......... and after what you have posted for sure I am not your friend

You are totally off the wall and without any support for saying what you have accused me of. However, I must thank you for being so adamant because before reading your post I was actually thinking rather highly of you. Thank you for showing me my error and that you are no different from most others who cannot tell their left hand from the right hand about the things of God.

Furthermore, you say you believe in signs and wonders as evidence to God's approval and blessings on a chosen people; Amen? I think so!

Do you have testimony of God's healing people of terminal diseases by you laying hands and praying over them, do you have testimony of God raising the dead by you laying hands and praying over someone? Because I do and have the witnesses to back my words.

Before you start making more false accusations about false prophets etc.etc, consider this. When someone dies the spirit goes back to God, and only God can determine whether or not the spirit should return to the person who left. In other words to make it simple enough for you to be able to understand through your over-educated level of intelligence, Satan cannot raise the dead!

You are a perfect example of how since the time when the apostles were at the helm, the seminaries of man and their man made degrees have been leading the children of God into false worship for so long now that evil is called good and good is called evil,

You should have remained silent and not gone with the false prophet charges you have made against me........ Without repenting this will not work out well for you!

Doug

Doug, I accept your rebuke in the spirit in which it is given. I stand by my words. You are teaching false doctrine, plain and simple. Perhaps I could have been a bit more "diplomatic." Like I said, I choose to believe your intentions are good. It does not change the nature of your postings, however. This has nothing whatsoever to do with friendship or opinions. It is a simple matter of guarding the truths of Scripture. In no way do I mean to imply that all you believe is heresy. However, the things you have posted above are simply not biblical and when it was pointed out to you by others, your response was even more off base than your original statement.

All of us, myself included are to be subject to the teachings of scripture. None of us are above correction. I have been corrected on this forum and rightly so in that case and I did repent and apologize. I therefore do repent if I have in anyway misjudged you. Perhaps you were not making yourself clear. But I have gone back over your posts and shared them with some trusted advisors and the teachings you are presenting are simply not biblical and have no basis in scripture.

Let me clarify one thing. I believe that God confirms His Word with signs and wonders. But I do not accept the premise that the mere presence of a sign or a wonder is automatically God's stamp of approval, no! We are warned that in the last days there will be false signs and wonders, that have the potential of deceiving even the elect.

All teachings must be judged by the ruler of the whole of scripture. Perhaps you are right. I should not have judged you so harshly. For that I sincerely ask your forgiveness. Would you be willing to start fresh? Can we look at what you are teaching together in the Word? And let the Word alone be our guide? Would you be open to that? If not, I understand.