Respect as Women

[Pressing-On]

Originally Posted by MissBrattified

PO, I'm a very pragmatic person, and for me, it is that simple. Women can either live this way or not. Women choose to live according to Islam or not. Women choose orthodox Judaism--or not. You either live according to the Apostolic culture or you don't. It's a choice--not an easy one--but a choice and the consequences either way are mine to own. There are benefits and drawbacks either way, so the trick is in weighing whether the benefits outweigh the drawbacks or whether you can tolerate the drawbacks.

For the record, I'm not likely to be sympathetic with my children for feeling excluded because of a rule. You either comply accordingly or you don't. If you don't want to follow the rules, you shouldn't be surprised or upset when you're either naturally excluded or when people purposely exclude you. Do you think a Muslim woman would be surprised to be excluded if she refused to wear her head covering? That would be silly on her part. I would only feel sympathetic if I felt my children weren't understanding the dynamics of the situation and if they were truly feeling hurt as a result. Otherwise it's the "that's no big deal" approach.



I'm not sure I understand this part: "While lining out your defense...." I agree that it's a huge choice, but there are other variables that determine whether or not it's a painful choice.

Yes, women do make choices. But your girls aren't women. They are underage and live in your house and under your care. They pretty much have to deal with whatever you and your husband are doing and where you attend church. I only refer to them as you have already mentioned your discussions with them. Although, I would respect you and your family by not going too far with the discussion here.

I am only looking at that as though my own children lived with me. I am just saying that giving them a choice would have caused a divide in my home if one child was sitting on the fence. If I am following the will of God, and we have, they are part of that choice.

My daughter is very talented and has to be "doing" something all the time. Now that she is older and gone, she has had to make that choice - because it was hers to make. While others followed the standards they didn't believe in, to keep their positions, she opted to be truthful about it and lost hers. So, going between two churches that are polar opposites, she wants to be in the one where she feels freedom in the Spirit. That choice happens to be a standard teaching church.

Anyway, from my perspective, it just isn't as easy as you made it sound in your posts. That's all I am saying. In the discussion of "choices", I am saying that I want to lay everything on the table. You didn't mention the difficulty that can be involved and I simply wanted to do that here.

My impression of your posts is that you love the conservative world you live in, so it is not toxic to you. Would that be correct?

[ILG]

Originally Posted by Pressing-On

Yes, women do make choices. But your girls aren't women. They are underage and live in your house and under your care. They pretty much have to deal with whatever you and your husband are doing and where you attend church. I only refer to them as you have already mentioned your discussions with them. Although, I would respect you and your family by not going too far with the discussion here.

I am only looking at that as though my own children lived with me. I am just saying that giving them a choice would have caused a divide in my home if one child was sitting on the fence. If I am following the will of God, and we have, they are part of that choice.

My daughter is very talented and has to be "doing" something all the time. Now that she is older and gone, she has had to make that choice - because it was hers to make. While others followed the standards they didn't believe in, to keep their positions, she opted to be truthful about it and lost hers. So, going between two churches that are polar opposites, she wants to be in the one where she feels freedom in the Spirit. That choice happens to be a standard teaching church.

Anyway, from my perspective, it just isn't as easy as you made it sound in your posts. That's all I am saying. In the discussion of "choices", I am saying that I want to lay everything on the table. You didn't mention the difficulty that can be involved and I simply wanted to do that here.

My impression of your posts is that you love the conservative world you live in, so it is not toxic to you. Would that be correct?

PO, I think the difference is that Miss B said these were her theories and have yet to be played out in their lives. She said she could even be wrong. On the other hand, you have seen your children grow up and have to make the hard choices. And they are hard choices.

[Pressing-On]

Originally Posted by ILG

PO, I think the difference is that Miss B said these were her theories and have yet to be played out in their lives. She said she could even be wrong. On the other hand, you have seen your children grow up and have to make the hard choices. And they are hard choices.

I do understand that she stated they are her theories. I am just thinking that if I had given my daughter a choice, we would have had chaos in our home. It would have been chaos because we taught them no matter how hard the situation, we must find the will of God for our lives. That was more important than a "choice". I'm pretty simplistic about it - you can't have a choice out of the will of God. That is my pragmatic view.

[MissBrattified]

Originally Posted by Pressing-On

I do understand that she stated they are her theories. I am just thinking that if I had given my daughter a choice, we would have had chaos in our home. It would have been chaos because we taught them no matter how hard the situation, we must find the will of God for our lives. That was more important than a "choice". I'm pretty simplistic about it - you can't have a choice out of the will of God. That is my pragmatic view.

At this point, their "choices" have been limited and small. They don't have the choice to skip church, commit sin, post obscenities on Facebook, leave the house dressed immodestly, or do anything else contrary to the character we expect them to display as Christians. We do allow them a choice in matters that we deem to be optional and not salvational. For instance, we don't tell them they can't wear jewelry, but they aren't allowed to wear it to church. (with the exception of watches and class/purity rings, which are allowed) Both of them have worn necklaces and bracelets at some point, and both of them have phased them out completely for various reasons. We contributed to some of that reasoning, but we didn't force the issue. Allowing them control over this small issue didn't cause chaos, and I'm not sure how it could have.

Of course, we also encourage our children to seek God's will for their lives, above everything else, and I'm not sure how that relates to the topic of standards.

[Pressing-On]

Originally Posted by MissBrattified

At this point, their "choices" have been limited and small. They don't have the choice to skip church, commit sin, post obscenities on Facebook, leave the house dressed immodestly, or do anything else contrary to the character we expect them to display as Christians. We do allow them a choice in matters that we deem to be optional and not salvational. For instance, we don't tell them they can't wear jewelry, but they aren't allowed to wear it to church. (with the exception of watches and class/purity rings, which are allowed) Both of them have worn necklaces and bracelets at some point, and both of them have phased them out completely for various reasons. We contributed to some of that reasoning, but we didn't force the issue. Allowing them control over this small issue didn't cause chaos, and I'm not sure how it could have.

Of course, we also encourage our children to seek God's will for their lives, above everything else, and I'm not sure how that relates to the topic of standards.

Perhaps location and individual personalities are always at play. If we taught that we couldn't wear jewelry and I allowed my daughter to wear it, she would have been confused.

How the will of God relates to standards is that if you are in a standard teaching church, and feel you are in the will of God, they are related.

[ILG]

Originally Posted by Pressing-On

I do understand that she stated they are her theories. I am just thinking that if I had given my daughter a choice, we would have had chaos in our home. It would have been chaos because we taught them no matter how hard the situation, we must find the will of God for our lives. That was more important than a "choice". I'm pretty simplistic about it - you can't have a choice out of the will of God. That is my pragmatic view.

I'm not quite sure what you mean by the bolded above.

[Pressing-On]

Originally Posted by ILG

I'm not quite sure what you mean by the bolded above.

I don't have a lot of time today...just about to walk out the door, so I will give my responses and then log out.

Bratti presents this scenario and choice her daughter would have to make. I am wondering, for the sake of unity in a household, how is this any different than accepting the family's parental choice? I don't see much difference between the importance of a family member and a marriage decision on compliance. Why does the wife have to hold to a stricter instruction than a minor child? You have to have unity. If not, you have a bit of chaos and people pulling in opposite directions.

Originally Posted by MissBrattified

One of my girls is interested in an ultra-con boy, and I had a serious discussion with her about the importance of accepting the rules that go along with the *lifestyle* for the long term and whether or not that was doable. For the good of the relationship, you have to go into with your eyes open, knowing that you can accept living by a set of rules even if you don't necessarily think they're biblical or necessary.

[ILG]

Originally Posted by Pressing-On

I don't have a lot of time today...just about to walk out the door, so I will give my responses and then log out.

Bratti presents this scenario and choice her daughter would have to make. I am wondering, for the sake of unity in a household, how is this any different than accepting the family's parental choice? I don't see much difference between the importance of a family member and a marriage decision on compliance. Why does the wife have to hold to a stricter instruction than a minor child? You have to have unity. If not, you have a bit of chaos and people pulling in opposite directions.

Unity is not the same as uniformity.

[Pressing-On]

Originally Posted by ILG

Unity is not the same as uniformity.

Sometimes it is. Gotta run. Have a good one and Happy New Year, ILG!

[MissBrattified]

Originally Posted by Pressing-On

Yes, women do make choices. But your girls aren't women. They are underage and live in your house and under your care. They pretty much have to deal with whatever you and your husband are doing and where you attend church. I only refer to them as you have already mentioned your discussions with them. Although, I would respect you and your family by not going too far with the discussion here.

I am only looking at that as though my own children lived with me. I am just saying that giving them a choice would have caused a divide in my home if one child was sitting on the fence. If I am following the will of God, and we have, they are part of that choice.

We allow choice in the issues that we already feel are optional. We don't allow our children to choose sin. We have taught them what we believe is right and scriptural, and anything that lies beyond that is for them to pick up on their own. Our pastor doesn't teach dress standards from the pulpit, (other than generically teaching on modesty in dress and behavior) so the only time they hear about rules is from us or when they're going over a list of rules for church camp.

My daughter is very talented and has to be "doing" something all the time. Now that she is older and gone, she has had to make that choice - because it was hers to make. While others followed the standards they didn't believe in, to keep their positions, she opted to be truthful about it and lost hers. So, going between two churches that are polar opposites, she wants to be in the one where she feels freedom in the Spirit. That choice happens to be a standard teaching church.

I don't agree with the way you presented this. I don't have to agree with something in order to practice it or keep it. Submission is about submitting to someone else's will instead of your own. IMO, submission isn't even involved if there's no disagreement--you're simply doing what you already wanted to do, otherwise. I certainly don't believe it's dishonest or lying, unless you couple your practice with verbal assertion that you agree with or believe something that you don't. I can think of several rules that I follow that I don't agree with. How does that make me (or anyone else) dishonest?

Anyway, from my perspective, it just isn't as easy as you made it sound in your posts. That's all I am saying. In the discussion of "choices", I am saying that I want to lay everything on the table. You didn't mention the difficulty that can be involved and I simply wanted to do that here.

My impression of your posts is that you love the conservative world you live in, so it is not toxic to you. Would that be correct?

There are things about the conservative church world that I don't love, and I realize that under certain leadership it can become toxic very quickly. That's why I stated in an earlier post that church leadership determines, to a very large extent, whether your experience is positive or negative. Overall, our experience has been positive where we are now (where we've been for 14 years), but if we had remained in our former church, it would have been much different. I don't know how it would have affected me or our children in the longterm to be under a different type of leadership.

Whether the way we have handled our girls has simplified their choices or made them more complicated in the long run remains to be seen.