You Can Fake It All

[MissBrattified]

Originally Posted by ILG

Thanks, Miss B. I really appreciate your post! Actually, while I was being repeatedly accused on this thread of hating UPC'ers and wanting to put them all into one box, you are one of the people I thought of. You are a very sincere, respectful person and are able to discuss issues without broad brushing everyone who has left or who posts on controversial topics as being bitter and hateful.

People ebb and flow. Healing ebbs and flows. People will talk and then box things up for a long time and then talk again sometime down the road when something makes them think of a subject. We all do this. This doesn't mean that because a person brings up a controversial topic years after they left that they are sitting at home sucking their thumb wondering how to get back at the evil church and people who hurt them. To the contrary, that would not be healthy at all. The whole point in this exercise is to discuss like iron sharpeneth iron. We can all gain and benefit from this.

That's very true, and I occasionally take my *things* out of the box and discuss them. (Usually with my husband.) I can't do it for long, though, because old feelings can come flying back and I don't want to live there. I don't know if that means I haven't truly gotten over the hurt or if it will always be that way, to an extent.

As to certain people who are lashing out. And I say this because it is coming from both directions, it isn't healthy or productive to lash out and call people names and belittle them. It is really, really frustrating to me when I want to discuss an issue and the whole topic degrades into nothing but a mud slinging session. I feel like the whole issue that needs to be discussed gets lost underneath piles and piles of manure. I usually try for a while and then, often walk away because it feels useless. Then, later on down the road, I bring it back up again, after getting my courage up from some life event or personal growth of some kind.

Posting on these topics can be totally emotionally draining, but it can also be rewarding in certain ways. The rewards never come from slamming someone or trying to make someone feel like they are less than. The rewards come when there is an understanding breakthrough from either or both sides. There is a difference between unity and uniformity. Those who press uniformity have a different goal than I do. My goal is unity. Unity comes from, not agreement, but from understanding and mutual respect.

Again, Miss B. Thank you very much.

Yes, and when we value people we strive to understand them and respect them. When I see people being mean, hostile, disrespectful, etc., it tells me they have devalued their "victim" in their minds. That, in and of itself, is unChristian, because every person matters to God.

[MissBrattified]

To the thread: Yes, you can fake love for God, salvation and Christianity. People do it all the time and have since the beginning. Growing up in church, I've observed fakers and I've even been the faker from time to time. All you have to do is follow the rules and act like everyone else during service. Sometimes people fake for their own reasons/benefit and sometimes they fake because of peer pressure or pressure from authorities. Sometimes people are bullied into faking, IMO.

However, it really isn't our job to separate the tares from the wheat, and eventually the fakes will either be naturally separated (chaff blown away) or their differences will become visible. There's no need to uproot the fakers; there's only a need to examine ourselves and make sure we aren't guilty of being fake.

And then there are the Sunday mornings when we get up late, nothing goes right, Jeff and I argue on the way to church, and I have to walk in and pretend like nothing's wrong--for the sake of everyone else. That kind of "faking" has merit, because it's simply being considerate. We don't have to always share every negative feeling we're having, and God doesn't need to be punished with a lack of praise and devotion just because we're having a bad day. Trust me, though, when it's just Him and me? I know He knows but I share all my negative feelings anyway. No need to hide from God, but sometimes we do [feel the] need to hide from people. I guess that's our culture, both church and secular, or maybe it's personality. I don't like to open up my "mess" for all the world to see. I don't particularly care for making myself vulnerable, quite frankly. I trust only God with everything, and a very small handful of people with a carefully selected slice of that same "everything."

[ILG]

That's very true, and I occasionally take my *things* out of the box and discuss them. (Usually with my husband.) I can't do it for long, though, because old feelings can come flying back and I don't want to live there. I don't know if that means I haven't truly gotten over the hurt or if it will always be that way, to an extent.

My goal is to be able to openly discuss these issues anytime, anyplace, and feel comfortable with it. I am much closer to that than I have ever been before. I guess I feel that way because of my upbringing. My Dad was an alcoholic while I was growing up and although we rarely sit around talking about it, I have a good relationship with my parents now and at any time I wanted to, I could sit down and discuss it with my Dad. He has said that the years we needed him the most, he was there the least. He would never accuse me of "whining" or "hating" him or being bitter or resentful if I wanted to discuss it. On the flip-side, although it will always affect me, I take it out of the box on occasions when I see there is a fact of it that I should look at. To me, we have come to a healthy place.

Because I am dealing with an organization in this instance, it will never be quite like that. But I do know that the healthier that people are, the more able they are to listen and discuss issues rather than accuse the person bringing up the topic, especially if the person bringing up the topic is doing so in a respectful manner.

Yes, and when we value people we strive to understand them and respect them. When I see people being mean, hostile, disrespectful, etc., it tells me they have devalued their "victim" in their minds. That, in and of itself, is unChristian, because every person matters to God.

Yes, I totally agree! This shouldn't be about "winning". This should be about coming together in mutual understanding, even if we disagree on subjects.

[ILG]

[QUOTE]

Originally Posted by MissBrattified

However, it really isn't our job to separate the tares from the wheat, and eventually the fakes will either be naturally separated (chaff blown away) or their differences will become visible. There's no need to uproot the fakers; there's only a need to examine ourselves and make sure we aren't guilty of being fake.

Yes! This! So, my point is that when churches say that people aren't "in" because they don't follow a certain set of rules, they are guilty of separating the tares from the wheat. And when they say those are "in" when they are just following rules are also judging and they could be judging wrongly. Judging like this can be dangerous because it can harm innocents souls and it can protect guilty ones.

And then there are the Sunday mornings when we get up late, nothing goes right, Jeff and I argue on the way to church, and I have to walk in and pretend like nothing's wrong--for the sake of everyone else. That kind of "faking" has merit, because it's simply being considerate. We don't have to always share every negative feeling we're having, and God doesn't need to be punished with a lack of praise and devotion just because we're having a bad day. Trust me, though, when it's just Him and me? I know He knows but I share all my negative feelings anyway. No need to hide from God, but sometimes we do [feel the] need to hide from people. I guess that's our culture, both church and secular, or maybe it's personality. I don't like to open up my "mess" for all the world to see. I don't particularly care for making myself vulnerable, quite frankly. I trust only God with everything, and a very small handful of people with a carefully selected slice of that same "everything."

I don't call what you are doing there "faking" or "hiding", that's just being human.

As far as opening up messes, I like to do that to a certain extent. It makes people think, including me. And you have to think in order to grow.

[Dichotomy Girl]

Originally Posted by MissBrattified

You guys discuss "abuse" at the hands of the UPC and I can come here and experience "abuse" at the hands of people who hate the UPC. The irony is rich. FTR, I've never felt that from ILG or Dichotomy Girl, and I do believe there's some benefit in analyzing issues and problems and not sweeping things under the proverbial rug. At the same time, there's not a lot of benefit from living in pain, and dwelling in past hurts is precisely that.

Both ILG and DG have presented some of the most difficult topics that I have ever considered, but they almost always do it with kindness and reason, and I appreciate that. That's respectful dialogue. Some people USE threads like theirs to express their hostility and they DO lump everyone together and it's hurtful. Others use every thread as an opportunity to mock, condescend and feel superior to Christians or conservative Apostolics. The trend that I see (judging from the narrow slice in this forum) is that people who have left the UPC end up being hateful, bitter, rude, dismissive, superior jerks, and it's very difficult for ME not to broad brush right back. The only thing that keeps me in check on that point is knowing that my thoughts aren't always rational and I have to continue to address people as individuals. ILG and DG are two of the people who remind me that not everyone is the same, not everyone is unpleasant, not everyone is filled with hate.

Thank you very much for this. I've popped in at various times over the past years, but I came back recently because I've been struggling with the whole I want to take my daughter to church and my daughter allows it, and well, this was always where I came to discuss spiritual issues.

And there are some great people that are still here, but I confess, I miss many of the old faces, those who I might have vehemently disagreed with, and shocked, but always with love. It makes me sad, but I guess, seasons change....

Originally Posted by MissBrattified

That's very true, and I occasionally take my *things* out of the box and discuss them. (Usually with my husband.) I can't do it for long, though, because old feelings can come flying back and I don't want to live there. I don't know if that means I haven't truly gotten over the hurt or if it will always be that way, to an extent.

People are different, and have different struggles, and heal differently. But I can say that for me, the emotional component is completely gone. (I can still see some things academically as being bad or hurtful or unhealthy, etc, but the negative emotions are no longer there), and that has freed me to see things more clearly.

We all know that emotions can overwhelm, so for a long time all I could see/remember was the bad. But the past 5 years have given me clarity, and I can see the good things that came out of my experiences, the blessings, the strengthening of character, and that it put me on my current path, with a daughter I never thought I would have, and a husband I love more than anything.

[MissBrattified]

Originally Posted by Dichotomy Girl

...We all know that emotions can overwhelm, so for a long time all I could see/remember was the bad. But the past 5 years have given me clarity, and I can see the good things that came out of my experiences, the blessings, the strengthening of character, and that it put me on my current path, with a daughter I never thought I would have, and a husband I love more than anything.

I share that deep appreciation for my life as a whole, even though my only take away from some painful events may be a life lesson or "eye opener."

[MissBrattified]

Originally Posted by ILG

Yes! This! So, my point is that when churches say that people aren't "in" because they don't follow a certain set of rules, they are guilty of separating the tares from the wheat. And when they say those are "in" when they are just following rules are also judging and they could be judging wrongly. Judging like this can be dangerous because it can harm innocents souls and it can protect guilty ones....

I agree with you, but I also believe we are given a set of filters in the New Testament which provide a sort of litmus test for who's real and who isn't. Unfortunately, those litmus tests aren't usually the ones the church today uses.

The NT litmus tests were comprised of "love for one another", "looking after orphans and widows", "keeping yourself unspotted from the world", and "bridling your tongue." The most vague of those is the one about keeping yourself unspotted from the world, which allows for the most expansive application and the most abuse (in the sense that the term can be exploited to fit nearly any agenda). The others are largely discarded in my observation, and understandably, since bridling your tongue, loving people and looking after the disenfranchised are much more difficult things to accomplish.

That said, I don't think those filters were given to us so we could go around labeling people as being in or out or tares or wheat. It's more of an FYI to help us know the people with whom we labor and be aware of who to follow and who not to follow. I don't believe that those guidelines were given to us for the purpose of taking action against others to remove them from the church. I guess my POV is that we can observe and take note, but with the humility that we don't really know what's in people's hearts (so we can't really say for SURE) and that it's God's place to deal with the fakes.

A funny little thing happened yesterday. One of my girls and I were going over a list of words from an ACT prep list, and we came across the word "sanctimonious." She didn't know the definition, so I read it to her: "making a show of being morally superior to other people"--and I added, "people who act holier than thou." She immediately responded with a snort and said, "Yeah, most of the people around here act holier than thou." I looked at her and responded with, "And that was a sanctimonious statement that you just made."

It's so hard to see ourselves while we malign and judge other people. I hope my children at LEAST get the message that they are responsible for themselves to God, and that they don't need to take on the burden of forcing others to live right, do right, speak right or even make it to heaven. More importantly, I hope they never make their relationship with God contingent on their relationships with people.

[Timmy]

And then there are the litmus tests that Jesus gave you. The one stated most clearly, I suppose, is this one:

By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.

And we all know it works, too! Nobody but true followers of Christ would love each other.

And then there is the whole sheep and goats thing. Everyone who feeds the hungry, gives drink to the thirsty, takes in strangers, etc. is in. And again, nobody but Christians do that. Obviously.

(Hope your sarcasm detectors are in working order. )

[Timmy]

As for those "signs following", well, yeah, you got me there. It's really true (or is it?) that only Christians speak in tongues, heal people, cast out devils, pick up snakes and drink poison. So there's a pretty good litmus test. Maybe. :thumpsup

[navygoat1998]

MissBrattified I always enjoy your posts. I read them and I always come away with a deeper understanding and appreciation. Thank you!