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Originally Posted by deacon blues
YOU say I am teaching that---but I'm NOT. I simply quoted his statement. You'll not find me posting anywhere that Paul said he was first of all sinners. Again, misrepresenting what I say is a falsehood, proving that Christians sin after conversion. You keep telling lies about me.
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Bro, Pastoe Mawk, you just can't put it together logically? Bro, you are absolutely saying that Paul was currently the first of all who sin. Why? Because πρώτός ειμι εγώ means that Paul was the first in order, which indicates he was actively sinning. You can't have it both ways, if you claim that Paul meant his readers to see him as πρώτός protos then we must logically conclude that the say man who told us not to sin was confused. But since we know he wasn't confused because we read his words in context, we can only say you are confused. Am I lying about you? Not at all, I just read what you offer and form a conclusion. You can say that you don't teach that Paul was the worst of all sinners all day long, and we can even believe you. But we then must conclude that you don't have the foggiest idea what Paul is saying in
1st Timothy 15, or
Romans 7. I just feel sorry for the toothless five year old. Because he will get absolutely nowhere being taught what you are teaching here.
Quote:
Originally Posted by deacon blues
Yet AFTER his conversion he calls himself chief of sinners. AFTER his conversion he talks about the struggle within his flesh---"oh wretched man that I am!" He speaks in the present tense not in past tense. Was he continuing to persecute Christians? No. Did he still struggle in his flesh and even fail? 100% sure.
Paul said he was chief of sinners. Paul said he was a wretched man. HE said it, not me.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by deacon blues
I don't disagree with IF in this verse, but are you saying it's possible for a believer to attain perfection in this life?
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Quote:
Originally Posted by deacon blues
But perfection won't happen while walking on this planet. We still have our flesh, and in our flesh dwells no good thing.
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DB, how can I walk away with any other conclusion? Did they teach you any Biblical Greek when you were in Bible college? Paul preached to the perfect, those who were spiritually complete, full aged, mature
1 Corinthians 2:6.
Howbeit we speak wisdom among THEM THAT ARE PERFECT: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought.
Paul taught that the ministry was to build the people up to unify in the faith to become a perfect man to the measure and totality of Christ.
John teaches in
1st John 3:2-3 that the saints were to purify THEMSELVES as Jesus was pure. John tells the neophytes in
1st John 3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous. Doeth Righteousness! So, they would be as righteous as Jesus Christ! I guess your idea of Paul wasn't what John or Paul had in mind. You don't teach that Paul was actively in sin, or actively wretched? That pretty hard to believe after reading your posts. Bro, if you say you don't teach that people are to continue in sin we must believe you, but all we can say is that you don't have a clue what the Bible is trying to convey to its readers.
Maybe you should study the Bible instead of Brennan Manning.
Quote:
Originally Posted by deacon blues
Paul was a humble man. Do I teach that Paul was the worst sinner of all sinners? NO! But then again I don't believe Paul believed in "degrees of sinners". He taught "ALL have sinned" and thereby classifies us as equally guilty. I perceive that you totem pole sin, categorize sin, classify sin in degrees so that there are gross sinners, bad sinners, sinners, and people who make mistakes. An honest person of integrity owns their own weakness. That's all Paul is saying. He's being REAL. Legalism encourages people to live secret lives, keeping up appearances, maintaining image. Paul is humbly acknowledging his own shortcomings, of which we ALL have EB, including you.
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Bro, you must be hotter than a hornet in a water hose. Man, you are all over the place. Bro, all have sinned was already explained to you. You obviously just don't understand the scripture. All have sinned meant the Judean and the Roman, speaking to a group where the Judeans believed they were saved already. Also that Romans couldn't be saved outside circumcision. Bro,
Romans 3:23 isn't the lifestyle of the Church, but an argument to the Judean and the Roman. That they who were law keeping Judeans needed a saving Messiah, and Romans needed to be saved with them. For a guy who talks all about humbleness you sure burn hot.
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Originally Posted by deacon blues
Paul taught that we should treat each other better than ourselves.
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Unless they are a suspected terrorist and then the above verse doesn't apply.
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Originally Posted by deacon blues
He sees others as better than him. So it's not unusual that he's saying he's the worst guy ever. It's not LITERAL!
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Now it's not literal???
How about a good old Rudy "Oh my!"
Bro, I'm the one who makes things up? I'm the one who use to run around with a Batman cape?
Philippians 2:2-4 is admonishment on behavior to a fledgling church. It isn't symbolic, he actually wanted to have the church to consider others more important than themselves. Bro, your above quote is senseless. I'm praying for that toothless boy.
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Originally Posted by deacon blues
You won't get it though. You're too busy congratulating yourself on how perfect you are.
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No, you don't get it, and you get upset. I often wonder if you guys would get this cocky in person? I always look at it as road rage but in a computer sense. You sure you left the UPC, or did they escort you out?
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Originally Posted by deacon blues
EB, CHRISTIANS DO BOTH!!!!! How hard is that to understand??? If human growth and development is analogous to spiritual growth and development, then it's SIMPLE---while we are growing and learning and maturing, we are also falling, and failing, and getting injured. It's not either/or---it's both!
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Bro, I understand growth from a neophyte "little children" to young men to elders. Totally understand this, but your falling, failing, legs falling asleep, to total nervous breakdowns, seems to be part of the DNA. DB, can you get to a point in this life where failing becomes less and less, until you are walking, and running? I don't think you can see that. I think you see the Christian constantly a stumblebum all the way to their own death, burial, and resurrection.
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Originally Posted by deacon blues
Why doesn't Paul "I WAS the chief of sinners" or "I ONCE WAS chief of sinners"? Why use present tense? And that doesn't mean he was saying "I'm still persecuting the church and blaspheming"!!! Shaking my head...
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Yeah, your head should be shaking because it has been flip flopping in every post.
Bro, I can see you don't read anything in context, and you must be so fumed as you read my posts that you breeze through them. I already explained this to you. I told you if you read Paul's first offerings in the prior verses you will see that Paul states he was ONCE a blasphemer, which indicates he was no longer a sinner, and he ONCE attacked the church of God, which indicates he no longer took part in that. You cherry pick what you want out of the verse and fly it up the flag pole. Paul in no way meant that he was currently the first of all who sin. Again, did you learn any Greek in school? Do you have a Greek dictionary? Well if you do use it.
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Originally Posted by deacon blues
They are going to come out with a new Quickcrete variety called QUICKCRETE EB---extra thick and hard.
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Bro, the only thing around here which is "Thick and Hard" is your head.
Hybrid Mode
