A Picture of Grace from God's Point of View

[shazeep]

Originally Posted by mfblume

Sorry

by all means, judge then; perhaps you will not be judged. Don't forgive; it may be that you will still be forgiven. Dwell on the sins of others, and accuse them, for perhaps you are sinless, and qualified to cast the first stone. The passage in John is talking about you, too, although we as Christians never seem to see ourselves in these, do we? We are The Administrators!

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by shazeep

by all means, judge then; perhaps you will not be judged.

It's not my place to judge and I haven't.

The word judged them already. Sorry, but the word says what the Word says, and you can try to justify yourself in saying it doesn't mean what it says all you like. But it does say what it says and already made the judgment. Argue with God and and tell him how wrong he is. It's His word, not mine.

Joh 3:18 KJV He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Don't forgive;

I forgive anyone.

it may be that you will still be forgiven. Dwell on the sins of others, and accuse them, for perhaps you are sinless, and qualified to cast the first stone.

We can forgive everyone of everything, but God is the judge, not us. And His word judged the issue already. No amount of forgiveness from us will move God to change His mind about what He will judge.

I judged no one. The Word did.

The passage in John is talking about you, too, although we as Christians never seem to see ourselves in these, do we? We are The Administrators!

We're not administrators'. The word is. I guess when the word says disbelief in the cross means one is lost, and we turn around and repeat that, we are judging? Hardly. You need to simply believe what the Word says, and realize it made the judgment.

If the Word never said anything about our need to believe in the work of the cross or be lost, then our statements that people are lost if they disbelieve would indeed be judging. But it just ain't so.

Sorry, But I will repeat what the word says is required when I tell people what is required.

Joh 3:18 KJV He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

So, Shazeep, how can Muslims be saved when they teach Jesus did not die on the cross? And how can we forgive them and think that means they're saved? Does our forgiveness save them? Will God forgive them for not believing in the cross?

You can look for all the common beliefs we have with Islamics all you like, but none of them cancel out the fact they deny the specific thing that is the basis of salvation -- Jesus' death on the cross for our salvation. All the common elements we agree on are many, and good beliefs. BUT NONE OF THEM SAVE US.

[shazeep]

Originally Posted by mfblume

So, Shazeep, how can Muslims be saved when they teach Jesus did not die on the cross?

i never said anything about Muslims being saved; this is, and has always been, about anyone who condemns others claiming to be a Christian.

Originally Posted by mfblume

And how can we forgive them and think that means they're saved? Does our forgiveness save them? Will God forgive them for not believing in the cross?

What will that matter to you when you are in hell for not being forgiving? And more, in a worse part of hell for teaching this as being Christian? Do we need to review how it is you deem anyone saved or lost again? Read this as hard as you can; Muslims are not the issue here. It is the state of a heart that can so freely condemn while being so blind to self that is.

See why God put Muslims on the earth; it is right there in Scripture, plain to read; to contend with you. Therefore saying "All ________ are lost" is the same as saying "I am stupid, and do not grasp that if i do not contend, there is no contest." Now this might seem to infer some kind of "anything goes" to you guys, and i have let that go a couple of times, but the truth is that those crying "Lord, Lord" are obviously not accepted, and it is Scripture that makes this clear. Too bad for you.

So be who you will. As you think, so are you. It is great to have a more complete, legal understanding of Christ; with this comes more responsibility, and it is those who understand it that will be judged by that standard, and rewarded for that understanding. Apply it to others in order to condemn them, and claim that God did it all you like; and keep bowing out whenever Scripture admonishes you for this, but keep in mind that you will be known by your fruit, just like anyone else. No one is remembered for their confession.

What you say you believe means less than nothing, to God. Who have you harmed, even inadvertently? Claim the cross, and plead the blood, all you like; you, who understand repentance, will be judged by this; not the one who does not understand it.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by shazeep

i never said anything about Muslims being saved;

You said we cannot say they're lost. So that leaves the possibility they're saved.

this is, and has always been, about anyone who condemns others claiming to be a Christian.

No one is condemning anyone. They are ALREADY condemned. The word condemned them. For as many times as you make this invalid statement saying we are condemning people, I will repeat the truth of the picture that says the Word of God already condemned them.

What will that matter to you when you are in hell for not being forgiving?

My forgiveness cannot keep them in hell or take them out. My forgiveness has nothing to do with this. I am not God. lol

And more, in a worse part of hell for teaching this as being Christian?

Sorry you think the bible is not "Christian"? The bible made those claims, not me.

Do we need to review how it is you deem anyone saved or lost again?

It has nothing to do with me deeming anyone lost or saved. the bible did.

Read this as hard as you can; Muslims are not the issue here. It is the state of a heart that can so freely condemn while being so blind to self that is.

Sorry, the issue is what the word says. And no amount of wrangling that word will change the truth. When the bible says believe in Christ and him crucified or be lost, then it means we must believe in that or be lost. lol

See why God put Muslims on the earth;

God never put muslims in the earth any more than he put hindus or buddhists in the earth. He put human being son the earth. And he told them they must be saved by faith in the cross. Sorry, dude. It'[s just what the bible says. Take it up with the Author.

It is right there in Scripture, plain to read; to contend with you. Therefore saying "All ________ are lost" is the same as saying "I am stupid, and do not grasp that if i do not contend, there is no contest." Now this might seem to infer some kind of "anything goes" to you guys, and i have let that go a couple of times, but the truth is that those crying "Lord, Lord" are obviously not accepted, and it is Scripture that makes this clear. Too bad for you.

What has that got to do with the price of tea in China? You created a perversion of the bible that says nothing the bible says is valid. It's full of contradictions and we cannot actually know truth. To you, when the bible says sin is sin, you say we cannot say it sin is sin. You effectively make the bible a game for God to play with people. Fact is, the word is plain to see. You just don't like what it's saying.

So be who you will. As you think, so are you. It is great to have a more complete, legal understanding of Christ; with this comes more responsibility, and it is those who understand it that will be judged by that standard, and rewarded for that understanding. Apply it to others in order to condemn them,

There you go again. The word condemned them. Not me.

and claim that God did it all you like; and keep bowing out whenever Scripture admonishes you for this,

Scripture? Any time scripture is mentioned and presented for discussion you run like a nocturnal flying mammal out of hades.

but keep in mind that you will be known by your fruit, just like anyone else. No one is remembered for their confession.

Apples and oranges, speaking of fruit.

Try getting proper context. Of, I forgot. Discuss context and you run... or fly away./

What you say you believe means less than nothing, to God. Who have you harmed, even inadvertently? Claim the cross, and plead the blood, all you like; you, who understand repentance, will be judged by this; not the one who does not understand it.

Sad. Jesus said His word will judge everyone in the end. And those who lack understanding are not excused from the stripes. That's in the context, too, you know. Pesky context, huh?

[mfblume]

Mark 16:16 KJV He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

Oh, how judgmental Jesus was! Condemning even!

John 3:18-19 KJV He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. (19) And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

Oh no. Again! So judgmental.

1 John 5:10 KJV He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son.


John, too?! So condemning!

1 John 2:22 KJV Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.


John is so condemning.

See folks? The bible makes these statements, and no one balks. But when people repeat them, suddenly we're condemning people!

lol

[shazeep]

Originally Posted by mfblume

You said we cannot say they're lost. So that leaves the possibility they're saved.

and we have already investigated your definitions of "saved" and "lost," and you didn't do so well there, did you? But i can see that we aren't even having the same conversation, and that this prolly isn't even possible. Best of luck to you.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by shazeep

and we have already investigated your definitions of "saved" and "lost," and you didn't do so well there, did you? But i can see that we aren't even having the same conversation, and that this prolly isn't even possible. Best of luck to you.

Well, when you say things such as we can never know the truth, anyway, your concept of lost or saved is simply something too vague to accept.

And I already mentioned that as well. No such thing as luck, unless you don't believe the word. Oh, right...

[mfblume]

Here is your error of reasoning, shazeep.

Mark 16:16 KJV He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

We read that and if we say, "You're not baptized and you don't believe? Well Jesus said you shall be damned," you jump in and say we are being judgmental!

John 3:18-19 KJV He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. (19) And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

We read that and say, "You do not believe Jesus is the Messiah whose death saves us? Jesus said you are condemned already." You jump in and say we are condemning.

We read those verses and say, "You have not believed on the name of the ONLY BEGOTTEN (note the term begotten) Son of God, because your holy book says God CANNOT beget, then Jesus said you are condemned already." You jump in and say we are judgmental.

1 John 5:10 KJV He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son.

We read that and show the record throughout the New Testament that states the work of the cross is God's plan of salvation, and say, "You do not believe God's record of the work of the cross? You just made God a liar since you deny the cross even occurred." You jump in and say we are so condemning and not carrying our crosses!

1 John 2:22 KJV Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.

We read that and say, "You do not believe God can beget a Son, since the Qu'ran says God cannot never did and never will beget? John said you are antichrist if you deny God has an actual Son He whom begat."

And you jump in and say we're being judgmental. In each and every case the bible made the conclusion, not me. And you claim I am being judgmental.

You're just not wanting to accept what parts of the bible say, is the reality of the picture. But no matter how hard you twist and force, the bible says what it says, and it is not meant to confuse or deceive. That is actually blasphemy. It is meant to shed simple truth to recover people from hell by rescuing them from false religion and .blindness.

[shazeep]

Originally Posted by mfblume

Well, when you say things such as we can never know the truth, anyway, your concept of lost or saved is simply something too vague to accept.

i never said that one can never know the truth, however. I said that truth is not necessarily objective. As to my concept of saved being too vague, i could present 20 Scriptures about "saved" that you would argue with, and consider "vague," and have already presented quite a few.

Originally Posted by mfblume

And I already mentioned that as well. No such thing as luck, unless you don't believe the word. Oh, right...

Oh, right, everyone else has to be wrong for you to be more right, i forgot. Huh?
i'll stick with the word "luck" there, i chose it on purpose, and it certainly seems to be a factor in courtroom dramas.

Let's go with the "Catholic" thing for a minute, i believe we might shed some light with that line of questioning, if you are game.