The Cross of Christ Alone Can Save

[Pressing-On]

Originally Posted by pelathais

Jesus says, "Come unto me..." This is His request for "action" on the part of those who hear His call. When I respond, "Lord I believe..." I am acting and verbs can be used to describe what I am doing.

In the New Testament there is a long debate about the "Works of the Law." These "Works of the Law" were actions that the children of Israel did in obedience to the 613 commandments left by Moses.

It is a fact that both of the above involve verbs to describe the "action" of the believer. Repentance - or "Coming to Jesus" is not a "Work of the Law" however. Moses never commanded anybody to turn to Jesus Christ for salvation. Though the Law and the Prophets did testify of Jesus Christ, the idea of converting from a life of sin and unbelief to a life of faith in the Messiah was never one of the 613 commandments nor a part of any of the later Talmudic traditions attached to them.

The same can be said about water baptism, as I just mentioned to Mike (above). In conclusion, neither repentance nor baptism are "works" in the sense that the New Testament uses the word. "Works" in the NT has a specific theological definition. In common vernacular today, the Evangelical movement has applied the meaning in a wider use. I am not an "Evangelical" (please notice the upper case "E"). I am theologically an Arminian and so are all of the "One Steppers" who preceded me.

We are made free from the penalty for our sins by repentance. Baptism accomplishes something as well when we "imitate" the risen Lord and begin our new life (1 Peter 3:21 - "baptism saves us by the resurrection of Jesus Christ which results in a good conscience toward God").

Notice what Paul says in Romans 6:18 - "Being then made free from sin..."

How were these people "made free from sin?" See the previous verse, Romans 6:17. They were made free by the grace of God and not the "works of the law." Moses didn't make them free, Jesus did.

Now, having been "made free from sin" - can we say that they are in a condition of having the atonement? (Romans 5:11-18). They have the atonement and they are justified by Jesus Christ. Their sins are "paid" by the blood of the Lamb.

So... (the question that Paul is addressing)... what comes next? Next, they are to become "slaves" again (servants)... however, this time they are to be the "servants of righteousness" and not the "servants of sin."

They are saved, now they're supposed to "act like it." These new actions of righteousness however will not save them. They are already saved by the grace of God. These new actions will preserve them, they will serve as a witness to the lost, and they will benefit both other members of the church and members of the community at large.

But they (and we!) do these works of righteousness NOT to get save, NOT to show that we are more holy than anyone else. We do these actions as "slaves" (servants) of our Lord Who performed the greatest charitable gift of all when He laid down His life for us.

Thanks for taking the time to respond, Pel. Didn't want to ignore your post after you spent the time to type it out. I don't have much else to say on the subject. I will have to lean toward agreeing with MB on this one.

[pelathais]

Originally Posted by Pressing-On

Thanks for taking the time to respond, Pel. Didn't want to ignore your post after you spent the time to type it out. I don't have much else to say on the subject. I will have to lean toward agreeing with MB on this one.

Thanks, did you see my responses to what Mike had said? Any thoughts?

His whole attempt at wrestling with "works" is really a non sequitur in this discussion. I know that it is common to see it come up, however when we are considering "One Stepper" versus "Three Stepper" theology we have to keep in mind that none of those men were Calvinists.

Repentance is not a "work" in Pauline theology and neither is baptism. When Paul decries those who are advocating "works" he is talking about the "Works of the Law." Water baptism in the name of Jesus Christ was never considered a part of the "works of the Law," nor any other type of baptism for that matter.

Repentance and baptism are two different things and they accomplish different things - though they are obviously both going to related close to one another in time and in the experience of the convert to Christianity. Neither are "works" however until when a Calvinist comes into the room. "One Steppers" were never Calvinists and didn't really show any Calvinistic influences until rather recently after being push out by their "Three Stepper" brethren.

[Pressing-On]

Originally Posted by pelathais

Thanks, did you see my responses to what Mike had said? Any thoughts?

His whole attempt at wrestling with "works" is really a non sequitur in this discussion. I know that it is common to see it come up, however when we are considering "One Stepper" versus "Three Stepper" theology we have to keep in mind that none of those men were Calvinists.

Repentance is not a "work" in Pauline theology and neither is baptism. When Paul decries those who are advocating "works" he is talking about the "Works of the Law." Water baptism in the name of Jesus Christ was never considered a part of the "works of the Law," nor any other type of baptism for that matter.

Repentance and baptism are two different things and they accomplish different things - though they are obviously both going to related close to one another in time and in the experience of the convert to Christianity. Neither are "works" however until when a Calvinist comes into the room. "One Steppers" were never Calvinists and didn't really show any Calvinistic influences until rather recently after being push out by their "Three Stepper" brethren.

Pel,
I think Paul says that repentance is a work. Therefore, baptism must also be a work.

Paul tells King Agrippa, "But shewed first unto them of Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and throughout all the coasts of Judaea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, and do works meet (deserving/suitable) for repentance." (Acts 26:20)

If John, the forerunner, was preaching the "baptism of repentance", then Paul was preaching it also, except that Paul would have included the infilling of the Holy Ghost. I believe as MB put it - "And Spirit infilling with tongues is where we also do something. But we speak as the Spirit gives utterance. It is cooperation in all cases! The Spirit does not simply come on us without any mental assent required for anything."

James 2:17 "Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone."

I think that you have to, also, consciously repent (think differently). That is a work (deed) and something we are engaged in. I think that if you are morally feeling compunction (sense of guilt), you are going to have your mental faculties involved. Therefore, it is a work. There are no free passes into the Kingdom.

[Hoovie]

Originally Posted by Pressing-On

Pel,
I think Paul says that repentance is a work. Therefore, baptism must also be a work.

Paul tells King Agrippa, "But shewed first unto them of Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and throughout all the coasts of Judaea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, and do works meet (deserving/suitable) for repentance." (Acts 26:20)

If John, the forerunner, was preaching the "baptism of repentance", then Paul was preaching it also, except that Paul would have included the infilling of the Holy Ghost. I believe as MB put it - "And Spirit infilling with tongues is where we also do something. But we speak as the Spirit gives utterance. It is cooperation in all cases! The Spirit does not simply come on us without any mental assent required for anything."

James 2:17 "Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone."

I don't see that it's saying repentance IS a work. "they should repent and turn to God" AND "do works meet for repentance."

The good works are caused by repentance, therefore they are in agreement with the nature of true repentance. The NKJ says "befitting" of repentance.

Also, James is saying true faith brings forth good works in a believer. A little different that saying good works creates belief or faith...

[Pressing-On]

Originally Posted by Hoovie

I don't see that it's saying repentance IS a work. "they should repent and turn to God" AND "do works meet for repentance."

The good works are caused by repentance, therefore they are in agreement with the nature of true repentance. The NKJ says "befitting" of repentance.

Yes, I agree with that. "...and also among the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, and do works and live lives consistent with and worthy of their repentance."

I think that you have to, also, consciously repent (think differently). That is a work (deed) and something we are engaged in. I think that if you are morally feeling compunction (sense of guilt), you are going to have your mental faculties involved. Therefore, it is a work. There are no free passes into the Kingdom.

[Hoovie]

Originally Posted by Pressing-On

Yes, I agree with that. "...and also among the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, and do works and live lives consistent with and worthy of their repentance."

I think that you have to, also, consciously repent (think differently). That is a work (deed) and something we are engaged in. I think that if you are morally feeling compunction (sense of guilt), you are going to have your mental faculties involved. Therefore, it is a work. There are no free passes into the Kingdom.

I am just not ready to say that myself. I would think it much more appropriate to say it is the work of the Spirit which I simply yield to. The yielding is not so much an intellectual decision as it is the inner man receiving the message... no "works" involved. "God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure."

For it is God who is producing in you both the desire and the ability to do what pleases him. ISV

[Pressing-On]

Originally Posted by Hoovie

I am just not ready to say that myself. I would think it much more appropriate to say it is the work of the Spirit. "God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure."

For it is God who is producing in you both the desire and the ability to do what pleases him. ISV

Yes, I also agree, except, you have to be willing to comply. That is engaging in an act. He isn't doing all of the work alone. We are working together in unity.

It's just coming across that nothing is being done or demanded of our part. But that isn't true.

1 Peter 4:17 "For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?"

Action is required to be saved.

[pelathais]

Originally Posted by Pressing-On

Pel,
I think Paul says that repentance is a work. Therefore, baptism must also be a work.

Paul tells King Agrippa, "But shewed first unto them of Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and throughout all the coasts of Judaea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, and do works meet (deserving/suitable) for repentance." (Acts 26:20)

Not every use of the word "work" should be understood as "The Works of the Law" (Romans 3:27).

The term "Legalism" is used to describe those who wanted all Christian believers to be circumcised and to follow the other "works" of the Law of Moses. A "legalist" in the NT sense then would demand obedience to the Law - hence the use of the term "legalist." This is what Paul was fighting against - legalism and the idea that the "Works of the Law" had to be performed by all Christians.

In NT theology, water baptism is never considered a "work." Paul never called baptism a "work." What Paul is telling Agrippa here is that people are being exhorted to change their lives and bring forth fruit from that change. No one is ever told they must be baptized to show that they have repented.

John the Baptist made a similar statement as Paul's when he saw some Pharisees and Sadducees coming out to his baptismal. John called upon them to "bring forth fruit meet for repentance" (Matthew 3:8). This command is clearly not an appeal to get into the water and be baptized. It is a command for them to change their lives.

Originally Posted by Pressing-On

If John, the forerunner, was preaching the "baptism of repentance", then Paul was preaching it also, except that Paul would have included the infilling of the Holy Ghost. I believe as MB put it - "And Spirit infilling with tongues is where we also do something. But we speak as the Spirit gives utterance. It is cooperation in all cases! The Spirit does not simply come on us without any mental assent required for anything."

James 2:17 "Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone."

I think that you have to, also, consciously repent (think differently). That is a work (deed) and something we are engaged in. I think that if you are morally feeling compunction (sense of guilt), you are going to have your mental faculties involved. Therefore, it is a work. There are no free passes into the Kingdom.

I disagree and neither you nor Mike have offered any help for your statements. The "free pass" into the Kingdom is the free gift of God's grace. I have come to expect TheLegalist to say that the Gospel is not freely offered, but I'm a little surprised that you have fallen into this rhetoric. The free gift of our salvation was paid with a terrible price - the blood of Jesus Christ! To then add some more "cost" to it or to say that a believer is a like "a bumb (SIC) downtown" who gets a lollipop popped into his mouth is really startling.

Romans 5:15-21 (NKJV)

Here Paul explicitly calls salvation a "FREE GIFT." You didn't earn it, you don't deserve it; you could never earn it - but it's still all yours FREE just for the asking. All that is required is that you believe and call on Him "while He may be found."

Why can't you and Mike - and so many others - just relax, throw your arms into the air and say, "IT'S FREE! AND THAT IS WHAT HAS MADE ME TO BECOME FREE AS WELL!!!"

John 10:17-18 (NKJV) - "No one takes it from Me, but I lay it down of Myself."

You gonna argue with that? It was HIS life. Nobody could even take it away from Him. So what does He do? He offers it freely

Romans 8:31-39 - Just look at the confidence and the exhilaration for life that Paul has because he has been the recipient of a free gift (compare verse 32).

1 Corinthians 2:12 - Hasn't the Holy Ghost testified to you that eternal life is yours - for FREE?

Revelation 21:6 and Revelation 22:17 - The waters of life are available for you - for FREE!

"Ho! Everyone who thirsts, Come to the waters; And you who have no money, Come, buy and eat. Yes, come, buy wine and milk Without money and without price."

Isaiah 55

Galatians 1:3-5

Grace to you and peace from God the Father and our Lord Jesus Christ, who gave Himself for our sins, that He might deliver us from this present evil age, according to the will of our God and Father, to whom be glory forever and ever. Amen.

We didn't PAY Him to die for us. We didn't and could not ever pay Him pack for the gift He gave.

[Pressing-On]

Originally Posted by pelathais

Not every use of the word "work" should be understood as "The Works of the Law" (Romans 3:27).

The term "Legalism" is used to describe those who wanted all Christian believers to be circumcised and to follow the other "works" of the Law of Moses. A "legalist" in the NT sense then would demand obedience to the Law - hence the use of the term "legalist." This is what Paul was fighting against - legalism and the idea that the "Works of the Law" had to be performed by all Christians.

In NT theology, water baptism is never considered a "work." Paul never called baptism a "work." What Paul is telling Agrippa here is that people are being exhorted to change their lives and bring forth fruit from that change. No one is ever told they must be baptized to show that they have repented.

John the Baptist made a similar statement as Paul's when he saw some Pharisees and Sadducees coming out to his baptismal. John called upon them to "bring forth fruit meet for repentance" (Matthew 3:8). This command is clearly not an appeal to get into the water and be baptized. It is a command for them to change their lives.

I see your point here and I agree with you that it was a command for them to change their lives after repentance.

However, II Thess 1:8 says that there is flaming fire waiting for those that would not obey the Gospel. That is a command to repent, etc., He isn't only referring to a command to change their lives here. He is addressing their immediate salvation. It is a command for them to do something on their part.

I disagree and neither you nor Mike have offered any help for your statements. The "free pass" into the Kingdom is the free gift of God's grace. I have come to expect TheLegalist to say that the Gospel is not freely offered, but I'm a little surprised that you have fallen into this rhetoric. The free gift of our salvation was paid with a terrible price - the blood of Jesus Christ! To then add some more "cost" to it or to say that a believer is a like "a bumb (SIC) downtown" who gets a lollipop popped into his mouth is really startling.

Romans 5:15-21 (NKJV)

Here Paul explicitly calls salvation a "FREE GIFT." You didn't earn it, you don't deserve it; you could never earn it - but it's still all yours FREE just for the asking. All that is required is that you believe and call on Him "while He may be found."

Why can't you and Mike - and so many others - just relax, throw your arms into the air and say, "IT'S FREE! AND THAT IS WHAT HAS MADE ME TO BECOME FREE AS WELL!!!"

John 10:17-18 (NKJV) - "No one takes it from Me, but I lay it down of Myself."

You gonna argue with that? It was HIS life. Nobody could even take it away from Him. So what does He do? He offers it freely

Romans 8:31-39 - Just look at the confidence and the exhilaration for life that Paul has because he has been the recipient of a free gift (compare verse 32).

1 Corinthians 2:12 - Hasn't the Holy Ghost testified to you that eternal life is yours - for FREE?

Revelation 21:6 and Revelation 22:17 - The waters of life are available for you - for FREE!

"Ho! Everyone who thirsts, Come to the waters; And you who have no money, Come, buy and eat. Yes, come, buy wine and milk Without money and without price."

Isaiah 55

Galatians 1:3-5

Grace to you and peace from God the Father and our Lord Jesus Christ, who gave Himself for our sins, that He might deliver us from this present evil age, according to the will of our God and Father, to whom be glory forever and ever. Amen.

We didn't PAY Him to die for us. We didn't and could not ever pay Him pack for the gift He gave.

I believe that Jesus "willingly" and "freely" gave His life and offers us a way of escape. Everything He has is available for us because of His sacrifice. As we have already stated, everything flows from the cross.

When He says "free" it is defined as "liberate". I don't see, in all instances, that it is being defined as "having no cost or without a charge."

I Cor 2:12 "Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God."

This scripture is reaching past our obtained salvation to the things we are "freely given" having His Spirit. It is referring to the things the Spirit does teach us. (I John 2:27)

If we obey the Gospel, we are then liberated from sin. It cost Him a great deal. By His grace and His mercy He has torn down the middle wall of partition to accept all those that are willing. But we must do our part. We must willingly obey the Gospel. That is the only way we can partake of anything Jesus has to offer.

Ephesians 3:6 "That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:" (Ephesians 3:6).

We are made partakers BY/THROUGH the Gospel. We must obey. (II Thess 1:8; Acts 5:32; Hebrews 5:9; I Peter 4:7).

[pelathais]

Originally Posted by Pressing-On

I see your point here and I agree with you that it was a command for them to change their lives after repentance.

However, II Thess 1:8 says that there is flaming fire waiting for those that would not obey the Gospel. That is a command to repent, etc., He isn't only referring to a command to change their lives here. He is addressing their immediate salvation. It is a command for them to do something on their part.

So, Paul is commanding the church at Thessalonika to be baptized - again? And, he's using the impending judgment of reprobates as a means to strengthen that command?

I don't accept the "once saved always saved" notion. There are many commands associated with the Christian life (John 13:34, for example). But salvation itself comes as a free gift whose only command is "Come to Me, all you who labor and are heavy laden..."

Originally Posted by Pressing-On

I believe that Jesus "willingly" and "freely" gave His life and offers us a way of escape. Everything He has is available for us because of His sacrifice. As we have already stated, everything flows from the cross.

I stated that, but you can too now.

Originally Posted by Pressing-On

When He says "free" it is defined as "liberate". I don't see, in all instances, that it is being defined as "having no cost or without a charge."

I Cor 2:12 "Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God."

This scripture is reaching past our obtained salvation to the things we are "freely given" having His Spirit. It is referring to the things the Spirit does teach us. (I John 2:27)

If we obey the Gospel, we are then liberated from sin. It cost Him a great deal. By His grace and His mercy He has torn down the middle wall of partition to accept all those that are willing. But we must do our part. We must willingly obey the Gospel. That is the only way we can partake of anything Jesus has to offer.

Ephesians 3:6 "That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:" (Ephesians 3:6).

We are made partakers BY/THROUGH the Gospel. We must obey. (II Thess 1:8; Acts 5:32; Hebrews 5:9; I Peter 4:7).

It indeed cost Him a great deal, as I said earlier, but it costs us nothing.

Romans 5:15-21

Salvation is a free gift. It is made available - for free! - by the One Who gave His all.

Having received this free gift - we then become His servants (Romans 8:11-15) Not servants to sin and death, and not just servants either! We are fellow heirs to the Kingdom (Romans 8:16-17). As stewards of the Kingdom we have a tremendous responsibility (2 Corinthians 4:6-7).

I don't think we're arguing about different things, but rather about how best to articulate the same thing. The "One Stepper" method established the foundation with the Gospel as a free gift that is freely available to all. From this foundation the commands that follow are not onerous dictates of what the believer "has to do!" But, they are opportunities to serve our Lord.

They are not "assigned tasks and burdens" required to repay Him for our salvation. They are privileges to share and serve in the Kingdom as joint heirs with Christ.

"One Stepper" preachers don't look upon the saints they serve as "mindless sheep" whose legs need to be broken from time to time. They see themselves as servants whose life calling and purpose is to encourage and build up the flock of God (1 Peter 5:2) and to treat them as fellow servants and heirs to a Kingdom that is not their own.

All of this creates an entirely different atmosphere. The relationships are deeper and more genuine. The climate of worship is more open and free. The smiles on everyone's face are more ready and there's less of that "plastic smile."

How we articulate the free gift of the Gospel and the subsequent commands will affect everything else that we do. That's why I think it's important to get it right.