The Cross of Christ Alone Can Save

[jfrog]

Originally Posted by NotforSale

I like the guy who runs down the main aisle, with arms flying!!

yea he's definetly the star of that video!

[berkeley]

Originally Posted by NotforSale

Give it time, Tonto.

Pardon me?

[NotforSale]

Originally Posted by Berkley

Pardon me?

The Video?

[Hoovie]

Originally Posted by Pressing-On

Yes, I agree with that. "...and also among the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, and do works and live lives consistent with and worthy of their repentance."

I think that you have to, also, consciously repent (think differently). That is a work (deed) and something we are engaged in. I think that if you are morally feeling compunction (sense of guilt), you are going to have your mental faculties involved. Therefore, it is a work. There are no free passes into the Kingdom.

I am just not ready to say that myself. I would think it much more appropriate to say it is the work of the Spirit which I simply yield to. The yielding is not so much an intellectual decision as it is the inner man receiving the message... no "works" involved. "God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure."

For it is God who is producing in you both the desire and the ability to do what pleases him. ISV

[pelathais]

Originally Posted by Pressing-On

LOL!

I looked at this again. Another website explained it in more detail. Basically, they are calling "sanctification" the "crises experiment" which was taught by John Wesley. He taught that you needed a deeper surrender and deeper consecration after you were saved in order to become spirit filled. I suppose he is just trying to explain what sanctification means to him.

You have to keep in mind however, that the teachings of Wesley laid the foundation for the entire Holiness Movement. What we are today is a large part due to the "forum debates" that Wesley had with others; such as George Whitefield.

Wesley, with his teaching of "Entire Sanctification" founded the Holiness Movement. Debates then raged for over 100 years about "How do you know that you've been sanctified?" As people continued to pray and seek God, such things as Charles G. Finney's "anxiety bench" were introduced (he didn't call it that but the name stuck anyhow).

Finney used to bring out an old bench and place it at the front of the church and exhort members of his audience to come forward to kneel in front of the bench and to pray until "conviction fell." This is generally considered the origin of today's altar calls.

But folks were still casting about trying to find a final answer to Wesley's quest as outline here: http://www.whatsaiththescripture.com...Perfectio.html

Read the numbered points in the article. They are an excellent outline that trace Wesley's thoughts over the course of the development of the idea of "Sinless Perfection." This was the "Holy Grail" of the Holiness Movement.

But human nature being what it is, few people found a way to accomplish this state for an extended period of time - especially in their youths. So ministers were anxious to find some sort of "mark" or a sign" that their converts and parishioners had finally "arrived."

Folks experienced things they called "The Baptism of Fire" and "The Baptism of the Holy Ghost" - but experiences varied across the country and it was difficult to get the Holiness Movement as a whole behind any one phenomena.

Enter Charles Fox Parham. He became convinced that the state of "sinless perfection" could be achieved by the experience of the "infilling of the Holy Spirit." But again, how would you know objectively that someone had received the "infilling" or the baptism of the Spirit? This is where his idea of "speaking in other tongues" became the "evidence" of the Spirit's baptism.

[Pressing-On]

Originally Posted by Hoovie

I am just not ready to say that myself. I would think it much more appropriate to say it is the work of the Spirit. "God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure."

For it is God who is producing in you both the desire and the ability to do what pleases him. ISV

Yes, I also agree, except, you have to be willing to comply. That is engaging in an act. He isn't doing all of the work alone. We are working together in unity.

It's just coming across that nothing is being done or demanded of our part. But that isn't true.

1 Peter 4:17 "For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?"

Action is required to be saved.

[Pressing-On]

Originally Posted by pelathais

You have to keep in mind however, that the teachings of Wesley laid the foundation for the entire Holiness Movement. What we are today is a large part due to the "forum debates" that Wesley had with others; such as George Whitefield.

Wesley, with his teaching of "Entire Sanctification" founded the Holiness Movement. Debates then raged for over 100 years about "How do you know that you've been sanctified?" As people continued to pray and seek God, such things as Charles G. Finney's "anxiety bench" were introduced (he didn't call it that but the name stuck anyhow).

Finney used to bring out an old bench and place it at the front of the church and exhort members of his audience to come forward to kneel in front of the bench and to pray until "conviction fell." This is generally considered the origin of today's altar calls.

But folks were still casting about trying to find a final answer to Wesley's quest as outline here: http://www.whatsaiththescripture.com...Perfectio.html

Read the numbered points in the article. They are an excellent outline that trace Wesley's thoughts over the course of the development of the idea of "Sinless Perfection." This was the "Holy Grail" of the Holiness Movement.

But human nature being what it is, few people found a way to accomplish this state for an extended period of time - especially in their youths. So ministers were anxious to find some sort of "mark" or a sign" that their converts and parishioners had finally "arrived."

Folks experienced things they called "The Baptism of Fire" and "The Baptism of the Holy Ghost" - but experiences varied across the country and it was difficult to get the Holiness Movement as a whole behind any one phenomena.

Enter Charles Fox Parham. He became convinced that the state of "sinless perfection" could be achieved by the experience of the "infilling of the Holy Spirit." But again, how would you know objectively that someone had received the "infilling" or the baptism of the Spirit? This is where his idea of "speaking in other tongues" became the "evidence" of the Spirit's baptism.

All of that is very interesting - men trying to define and categorize what God is doing and make that work with their experiences.

I remember Bro. Billy Cole being called in as a Charismatic. He would explain the Gospel, sometimes put a chair out, have the person repent, become baptized and then he simply wanted them to believe they would receive the Holy Ghost and they would. He was being tagged as a charismatic for his simple teaching of faith. LOL!

[berkeley]

Originally Posted by NotforSale

The Video?

You insulted me in Spanish.

[pelathais]

Originally Posted by Pressing-On

Pel,
I think Paul says that repentance is a work. Therefore, baptism must also be a work.

Paul tells King Agrippa, "But shewed first unto them of Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and throughout all the coasts of Judaea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, and do works meet (deserving/suitable) for repentance." (Acts 26:20)

Not every use of the word "work" should be understood as "The Works of the Law" (Romans 3:27).

The term "Legalism" is used to describe those who wanted all Christian believers to be circumcised and to follow the other "works" of the Law of Moses. A "legalist" in the NT sense then would demand obedience to the Law - hence the use of the term "legalist." This is what Paul was fighting against - legalism and the idea that the "Works of the Law" had to be performed by all Christians.

In NT theology, water baptism is never considered a "work." Paul never called baptism a "work." What Paul is telling Agrippa here is that people are being exhorted to change their lives and bring forth fruit from that change. No one is ever told they must be baptized to show that they have repented.

John the Baptist made a similar statement as Paul's when he saw some Pharisees and Sadducees coming out to his baptismal. John called upon them to "bring forth fruit meet for repentance" (Matthew 3:8). This command is clearly not an appeal to get into the water and be baptized. It is a command for them to change their lives.

Originally Posted by Pressing-On

If John, the forerunner, was preaching the "baptism of repentance", then Paul was preaching it also, except that Paul would have included the infilling of the Holy Ghost. I believe as MB put it - "And Spirit infilling with tongues is where we also do something. But we speak as the Spirit gives utterance. It is cooperation in all cases! The Spirit does not simply come on us without any mental assent required for anything."

James 2:17 "Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone."

I think that you have to, also, consciously repent (think differently). That is a work (deed) and something we are engaged in. I think that if you are morally feeling compunction (sense of guilt), you are going to have your mental faculties involved. Therefore, it is a work. There are no free passes into the Kingdom.

I disagree and neither you nor Mike have offered any help for your statements. The "free pass" into the Kingdom is the free gift of God's grace. I have come to expect TheLegalist to say that the Gospel is not freely offered, but I'm a little surprised that you have fallen into this rhetoric. The free gift of our salvation was paid with a terrible price - the blood of Jesus Christ! To then add some more "cost" to it or to say that a believer is a like "a bumb (SIC) downtown" who gets a lollipop popped into his mouth is really startling.

Romans 5:15-21 (NKJV)

Here Paul explicitly calls salvation a "FREE GIFT." You didn't earn it, you don't deserve it; you could never earn it - but it's still all yours FREE just for the asking. All that is required is that you believe and call on Him "while He may be found."

Why can't you and Mike - and so many others - just relax, throw your arms into the air and say, "IT'S FREE! AND THAT IS WHAT HAS MADE ME TO BECOME FREE AS WELL!!!"

John 10:17-18 (NKJV) - "No one takes it from Me, but I lay it down of Myself."

You gonna argue with that? It was HIS life. Nobody could even take it away from Him. So what does He do? He offers it freely

Romans 8:31-39 - Just look at the confidence and the exhilaration for life that Paul has because he has been the recipient of a free gift (compare verse 32).

1 Corinthians 2:12 - Hasn't the Holy Ghost testified to you that eternal life is yours - for FREE?

Revelation 21:6 and Revelation 22:17 - The waters of life are available for you - for FREE!

"Ho! Everyone who thirsts, Come to the waters; And you who have no money, Come, buy and eat. Yes, come, buy wine and milk Without money and without price."

Isaiah 55

Galatians 1:3-5

Grace to you and peace from God the Father and our Lord Jesus Christ, who gave Himself for our sins, that He might deliver us from this present evil age, according to the will of our God and Father, to whom be glory forever and ever. Amen.

We didn't PAY Him to die for us. We didn't and could not ever pay Him pack for the gift He gave.

[rgcraig]

Originally Posted by Pressing-On

LOL!

I looked at this again. Another website explained it in more detail. Basically, they are calling "sanctification" the "crises experiment" which was taught by John Wesley. He taught that you needed a deeper surrender and deeper consecration after you were saved in order to become spirit filled. I suppose he is just trying to explain what sanctification means to him.

lol....so, are you going to apologize for giving him such a hard time using a real term?