The Cross of Christ Alone Can Save

[TheLegalist]

Originally Posted by notofworks

The TURN FROM SIN is the TURN TO CHRIST. I understand your objection to the equivocation of repentance to belief and we can dissect words and their meanings 'til the cows come home and argue over terminologies.

But I'm talking about our salvation coming at the point of repentance, salvation that comes when we believe. Is repentance completely belief? I'm not saying that it is and I don't really think it's an enormous point in the dialogue. If you need to separate faith and repentance and call them completely different things, I'm not gonna yell and scream about it and I'm not terribly interested in arguing about it.

My point is, belief, the turn, faith, repentance....these are not works. We are declared righteous because of our faith and it is faith...belief...confesses Jesus as Lord and that God has raised Him from the dead.

AGAIN justification does not mean one has come into covenant! PERIOD!

[mfblume]

Brethren, if you cannot see how repentance is a work in the sense that we choose to do it, and we may or may not do it once we have faith, and if you choose to believe there is no all-important difference between faith THAT WORKS and works that make us righteous in and of themselves, then I can only conclude you have not studied the issue of righteousness in the bible adequately enough. IMHO, that is. Hence, we're at loggerheads.

And that is why you care less if someone really ever gets baptized and how the New Testament is so insistent on it by contrast. Until you realize mental turning to Christ and from sin is an action, and say more than "walking old ladies across the street is a work, but turning the heart is not," we get no where. But I have enjoyed the chat.

[mfblume]

Brethren, explain these passages:

Mark 16:16 KJV He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

Colossians 2:11-12 KJV In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ: (12) Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

Acts 22:16 KJV And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.

Romans 6:3-4 KJV Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? (4) Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

1 Peter 3:21 KJV The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

Good for starters.

[TheLegalist]

Originally Posted by mfblume

Brethren, explain these passages:

Colossians 2:11-12 KJV In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ: (12) Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

Acts 22:16 KJV And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.

Romans 6:3-4 KJV Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? (4) Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

1 Peter 3:21 KJV The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

Good for starters.

Mike they can't! The whole issue at hand is they have a paradigm of justificaton that makes the bible a total contradiction. Thus you get the war of faith vs baptism, faith vs works, gospel and law. It's the same old worn out issue that they cannot get past. We can accept faith for what it is and we see it as a whole. They have to skew and totaly distort clear scriptures on baptism. As works have to be misused and abused to fit the rest of scripture and whole lot of lumping has to go on. "works" don't justify.... they yell. Yet they fail to realize justification is more than just about atonement. The framework of covenant is clearly shown by Abraham and he didn't come into covenant to obtain by simply believing something was true with agreement at one point in time and everything was given to him. sorry didn't happen and still won't. god accounted his response as righteous. That is ALL Gen 15:6 is. It's not directly about salvation though it shows the most basic conecept of how God's jsutice works. That God responds to our response and considers/judges it just or not. Just as we do daily. Thus the context is ALL DETERMINING of whether God declares a just response or not.

[Jeffrey]

Originally Posted by TheLegalist

Mike they can't! The whole issue at hand is they have a paradigm of justificaton that makes the bible a total contradiction. Thus you get the war of faith vs baptism, faith vs works, gospel and law. It's the same old worn out issue that they cannot get past. We can accept faith for what it is and we see it as a whole. They have to skew and totaly distort clear scriptures on baptism. As works have to be misused and abused to fit the rest of scripture and whole lot of lumping has to go on. "works" don't justify.... they yell. Yet they fail to realize justification is more than just about atonement. The framework of covenant is clearly shown by Abraham and he didn't come into covenant to obtain by simply believing something was true with agreement at one point in time and everything was given to him. sorry didn't happen and still won't. god accounted his response as righteous. That is ALL Gen 15:6 is. It's not directly about salvation though it shows the most basic conecept of how God's jsutice works. That God responds to our response and considers/judges it just or not. Just as we do daily. Thus the context is ALL DETERMINING of whether God declares a just response or not.

Who has waged the war of faith vs. baptism? Let's think about that. We believe in baptism, TL.

Don't be so pompous to suggest it's all "so clear" in your direction, when you hardly represent a speck of theological thought with your pseudo-BR theology.

You minimize justification -- that's clear. You don't understand it -- that's even more clear.

Your definition of believing lacks any substance, and only shows your one-dimensional view of it is a straw man for mental assent. God didn't say his "response" was righteous. You contort Paul's whole purpose in what he's saying to attempt to make that point. Why can't you see that? Your interpretation must still match Paul's purpose in Romans 3-6.

Responses/Works... how can you claim this is NOT a works theology? Does it end after baptism and tongues? Are our responses continually judged? Must we repent of all of them? If we forget? How secure is your faith? How can you make a claim other than fragile? What do you and I have in common with Abram -- faith. What is the most-used phrase in Gospel of John - believing. Why is "faith" and "believing" such a hard topic? Why so quick to drag your friends "works" and "credit" out to meet them. What an insult to His gift. You can't even obey God without already being covered by Grace. Don't you get it?

[TheLegalist]

Originally Posted by Jeffrey

Who has waged the war of faith vs. baptism? Let's think about that. We believe in baptism, TL.

Yes you do wage war. You wage war against what until means.

Don't be so pompous to suggest it's all "so clear" in your direction, when you hardly represent a speck of theological thought with your pseudo-BR theology.

You minimize justification -- that's clear. You don't understand it -- that's even more clear.

no you make justification something contradictory to what Abraham said and what is meant by Paul and James. Justification IN NOT COVENANT!

Your definition of believing lacks any substance, and only shows your one-dimensional view of it is a straw man for mental assent. God didn't say his "response" was righteous. You contort Paul's whole purpose in what he's saying to attempt to make that point. Why can't you see that? Your interpretation must still match Paul's purpose in Romans 3-6.

Really. so what is "IT" in the Gen 15:6? If "it" was not a response you make James a liar and you are ignoring the text. You can't consider nothing! You are blinded and ingore the WHOLE teaching of what "châshab" means and how God is always doing justice toward our responses.

Responses/Works... how can you claim this is NOT a works theology? Does it end after baptism and tongues? Are our responses continually judged? Must we repent of all of them? If we forget? How secure is your faith? How can you make a claim other than fragile? What do you and I have in common with Abram -- faith. What is the most-used phrase in Gospel of John - believing. Why is "faith" and "believing" such a hard topic? Why so quick to drag your friends "works" and "credit" out to meet them. What an insult to His gift. You can't even obey God without already being covered by Grace. Don't you get it?

Again as pointed out above you don't understand works in relation to faith and never have. Yes we are consistently judged. LOL Ever read REvelations and the letters to the churches. God sees your response and heart. Ezekial 18 is clear on the very aspect of how God looks at the heart. We are always under his covenant but are w abiding by it's agreement and at peace and not at enmity with God? The Spirit bears witness with ours that we are his children. Either we are following or not.

Again you fail to realize the proper aspect of "believing" in John of which I have given support for it's meaning muliple times of which you ignore. Faith is about context. I have pointed out constantly James White and others on this very issue. Saving Faith is a continous aspect not a point in time in is based on the realization of the context. Faith is based on following and doing. ALways has been always will be. Faith must follow it;s context. what is the context of James view of Gen 15:6?

[notofworks]

Originally Posted by mfblume

Brethren, explain these passages:

Mark 16:16 KJV He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

Colossians 2:11-12 KJV In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ: (12) Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

Acts 22:16 KJV And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.

Romans 6:3-4 KJV Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? (4) Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

1 Peter 3:21 KJV The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

Good for starters.

Do you really want or need these verses explained? An in-depth exegesis of these verses would take pages and you're the only one, at this point, who's typing pages! We could talk about how Jesus only applied the damnation in Mark 16:16 only to those who believed not but you've already heard that argument, haven't you?

I'm afraid that explaining a random list of verses that appear to back up your theology is a task in which I'm not would be productive. But if you like explaining random verses, try these:



1) Romans 10:4...For Christ has accomplished the whole purpose of the law. All who believe in him are made right with God.

2) Romans 10:8...Salvation that comes from trusting Christ–which is the message we preach–is already within easy reach. In fact, the Scriptures say, "The message is close at hand; it is on your lips and in your heart."

3) Romans 10:9...For if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

4) Romans 10:10...For it is by believing in your heart that you are made right with God, and it is by confessing with your mouth that you are saved.

5) Romans 10:13...For anyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.

6) Acts 2:21...And anyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.

7) Acts 13:39...Everyone who believes in him is freed from all guilt and declared right with God–something the Jewish law could never do.

8) Acts 16:31...They replied, "Believe on the Lord Jesus and you will be saved, along with your entire household."

9) I Corinthians 1:21...Since God in his wisdom saw to it that the world would never find him through human wisdom, he has used our foolish preaching to save all who believe.

10) Romans 5:1...Therefore, since we have been made right in God's sight by faith, we have peace with God because of that Christ our Lord has done for us.

11) John 11:25...Jesus told her, "I am the resurrection and the life. Those who believe in me, even though they die like everyone else, will live again."

12) John 11:26...They are given eternal life for believing in me and will never perish.

13) John 3:15...So that everyone who believes in me will have eternal life.

14) John 3:16...For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that everyone who believes in him will not perish but have eternal life.

15) John 5:24...I assure you, those who listen to my message and believe in God who sent me have eternal life. They will never be condemned for their sins, but they have already passed from death to life.

16) I Timothy 1:16...But that is why God had mercy on me, so that Christ Jesus could use me as a prime example of his great patience with even the worst sinners. Then others can realize that they, too, can believe in him and receive eternal life.

17) Romans 3:25...For God sent Jesus to take the punishment for our sins and to satisfy God's anger against us. We are made right with God when we believe that Jesus shed his blood, sacrificing his life for us.

18) Romans 3:28...So we are made right with God through faith and not by obeying the law.

19) I John 5:1...Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ is a child of God.

20) I John 4:15...All who proclaim that Jesus is the Son of God have God living in them, and they live in God.

21) II Timothy 3:15...You have been taught the holy Scriptures since childhood, and they have given you the wisdom to receive the salvation that comes by trusting in Christ Jesus.





Mike, let me ask you this: Here are 21 verses out of well over 50 that proclaim salvation comes when one believes. If it is not true that salvation comes when one believes, how does one reconcile all this?

If salvation doesn't come at belief/faith/repentance, does all this mean that one will be saved in the future, following his belief? Not everyone ends up following your steps after belief/faith/repentance so then would these verses be untrue? If your version is correct and you believe that they will be saved following belief, wouldn't it be better if all these statements had said, "They can be saved" rather than "They will be?"

Or, are you saying that all these authors...Paul, Jesus, John, etc.,...were summarizing all the steps and just reducing all the explanations down to "Belief"?

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by notofworks

Do you really want or need these verses explained? An in-depth exegesis of these verses would take pages and you're the only one, at this point, who's typing pages! We could talk about how Jesus only applied the damnation in Mark 16:16 only to those who believed not but you've already heard that argument, haven't you?

I'm afraid that explaining a random list of verses that appear to back up your theology is a task in which I'm not would be productive. But if you like explaining random verses, try these:

Two-way street bro., You refuse then so do I.

Mike, let me ask you this: Here are 21 verses out of well over 50 that proclaim salvation comes when one believes. If it is not true that salvation comes when one believes, how does one reconcile all this?

Easy! Like I have said all along, FAITH THAT WORTS is the faith that saves. And if the works never follow, there never was saving faith. It's so simple. Why is that so hard to follow?

What is not simple is how righteousness is related to everything.

[notofworks]

Originally Posted by mfblume

Two-way street bro., You refuse then so do I.



Easy! Like I have said all along, FAITH THAT WORTS is the faith that saves. And if the works never follow, there never was saving faith. It's so simple. Why is that so hard to follow?

What is not simple is how righteousness is related to everything.

I didn't know "worts" were involved! Compound W always worked for my warts! (sorry, I know it was a typo, but it just struck me funny)

Mike, so you're saying someone that believes that doesn't follow it up with the works of baptism and tongues didn't really believe in the first place??? That sounds like my old pentecostal past that would beat someone over the head when they first walked in, watch them walk out, and then proclaim, "Well, they just weren't ready."


Why is it so hard to follow? I don't know that it's hard to follow, oh great teacher, but it IS hard to fathom how such a simple thing can confound the wise.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by notofworks

Mike, so you're saying someone that believes that doesn't follow it up with the works of baptism and tongues didn't really believe in the first place??? That sounds like my old pentecostal past that would beat someone over the head when they first walked in, watch them walk out, and then proclaim, "Well, they just weren't ready."


Why is it so hard to follow? I don't know that it's hard to follow, oh great teacher,

More digs?

but it IS hard to fathom how such a simple thing can confound the wise.

Bro., forget what so and so did and what so and so walked away from. Does the Bible teach anything about FAITH THAT WORKS?

James said faith is dead without works. Useless, iow.