The Cross of Christ Alone Can Save

[TheLegalist]

Originally Posted by mfblume

Brethren, explain these passages:

Colossians 2:11-12 KJV In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ: (12) Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

Acts 22:16 KJV And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.

Romans 6:3-4 KJV Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? (4) Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

1 Peter 3:21 KJV The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

Good for starters.

Mike they can't! The whole issue at hand is they have a paradigm of justificaton that makes the bible a total contradiction. Thus you get the war of faith vs baptism, faith vs works, gospel and law. It's the same old worn out issue that they cannot get past. We can accept faith for what it is and we see it as a whole. They have to skew and totaly distort clear scriptures on baptism. As works have to be misused and abused to fit the rest of scripture and whole lot of lumping has to go on. "works" don't justify.... they yell. Yet they fail to realize justification is more than just about atonement. The framework of covenant is clearly shown by Abraham and he didn't come into covenant to obtain by simply believing something was true with agreement at one point in time and everything was given to him. sorry didn't happen and still won't. god accounted his response as righteous. That is ALL Gen 15:6 is. It's not directly about salvation though it shows the most basic conecept of how God's jsutice works. That God responds to our response and considers/judges it just or not. Just as we do daily. Thus the context is ALL DETERMINING of whether God declares a just response or not.

[notofworks]

Originally Posted by mfblume

Brethren, explain these passages:

Mark 16:16 KJV He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

Colossians 2:11-12 KJV In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ: (12) Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

Acts 22:16 KJV And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.

Romans 6:3-4 KJV Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? (4) Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

1 Peter 3:21 KJV The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

Good for starters.

Do you really want or need these verses explained? An in-depth exegesis of these verses would take pages and you're the only one, at this point, who's typing pages! We could talk about how Jesus only applied the damnation in Mark 16:16 only to those who believed not but you've already heard that argument, haven't you?

I'm afraid that explaining a random list of verses that appear to back up your theology is a task in which I'm not would be productive. But if you like explaining random verses, try these:



1) Romans 10:4...For Christ has accomplished the whole purpose of the law. All who believe in him are made right with God.

2) Romans 10:8...Salvation that comes from trusting Christ–which is the message we preach–is already within easy reach. In fact, the Scriptures say, "The message is close at hand; it is on your lips and in your heart."

3) Romans 10:9...For if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

4) Romans 10:10...For it is by believing in your heart that you are made right with God, and it is by confessing with your mouth that you are saved.

5) Romans 10:13...For anyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.

6) Acts 2:21...And anyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.

7) Acts 13:39...Everyone who believes in him is freed from all guilt and declared right with God–something the Jewish law could never do.

8) Acts 16:31...They replied, "Believe on the Lord Jesus and you will be saved, along with your entire household."

9) I Corinthians 1:21...Since God in his wisdom saw to it that the world would never find him through human wisdom, he has used our foolish preaching to save all who believe.

10) Romans 5:1...Therefore, since we have been made right in God's sight by faith, we have peace with God because of that Christ our Lord has done for us.

11) John 11:25...Jesus told her, "I am the resurrection and the life. Those who believe in me, even though they die like everyone else, will live again."

12) John 11:26...They are given eternal life for believing in me and will never perish.

13) John 3:15...So that everyone who believes in me will have eternal life.

14) John 3:16...For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that everyone who believes in him will not perish but have eternal life.

15) John 5:24...I assure you, those who listen to my message and believe in God who sent me have eternal life. They will never be condemned for their sins, but they have already passed from death to life.

16) I Timothy 1:16...But that is why God had mercy on me, so that Christ Jesus could use me as a prime example of his great patience with even the worst sinners. Then others can realize that they, too, can believe in him and receive eternal life.

17) Romans 3:25...For God sent Jesus to take the punishment for our sins and to satisfy God's anger against us. We are made right with God when we believe that Jesus shed his blood, sacrificing his life for us.

18) Romans 3:28...So we are made right with God through faith and not by obeying the law.

19) I John 5:1...Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ is a child of God.

20) I John 4:15...All who proclaim that Jesus is the Son of God have God living in them, and they live in God.

21) II Timothy 3:15...You have been taught the holy Scriptures since childhood, and they have given you the wisdom to receive the salvation that comes by trusting in Christ Jesus.





Mike, let me ask you this: Here are 21 verses out of well over 50 that proclaim salvation comes when one believes. If it is not true that salvation comes when one believes, how does one reconcile all this?

If salvation doesn't come at belief/faith/repentance, does all this mean that one will be saved in the future, following his belief? Not everyone ends up following your steps after belief/faith/repentance so then would these verses be untrue? If your version is correct and you believe that they will be saved following belief, wouldn't it be better if all these statements had said, "They can be saved" rather than "They will be?"

Or, are you saying that all these authors...Paul, Jesus, John, etc.,...were summarizing all the steps and just reducing all the explanations down to "Belief"?

[pelathais]

Originally Posted by TheLegalist

AGAIN justification does not mean one has come into covenant! PERIOD!

The title of the thread is "The Cross Alone Can Save."

Justification, or salvation from the penalty of sin is what the cross does. Can you simply say, "As far as the topic goes, I agree - our faith in the cross alone justifies the believer...?"

[pelathais]

Originally Posted by mfblume

Brethren, explain these passages:

Mark 16:16 KJV He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

I will do one post for each - to save your weary eyeballs...

Mark 16:9-20, represents the "longer ending to Mark." I'm not going to introduce a debate on this right now, but the fact that the passage is in doubt would tend to make reliance upon it inadvisable. From the Wikipedia article on this:

Hypotheses on how to explain the textual variations include:

• Mark intentionally ended his Gospel at 16:8, and someone else (at an early date) wrote the concluding lines.
• Mark did not intend to end at 16:8, but was somehow prevented from finishing (perhaps by his own death), whereupon another person finished the work before it was released for church-use.
• The Gospel originally contained a different (perhaps similar) ending that was lost, for one reason or another, whereafter the current ending was added.
• Verses 16:9–20 are authentic, and were omitted or lost from the Sinaiticus and Vaticanus for one reason or another, perhaps accidental, perhaps intentional.
• Verses 16:9–20 were added later to conform with the endings from the other Gospels.

James H. Charlesworth pointed out that Codex Syriacus (a 5th-century translation), Codex Vaticanus (mid-4th century), and Codex Bobiensis (4th- or 5th-century Latin) are all early manuscripts that exclude the Marcan appendix. In addition to these, approximately 100 Armenian manuscripts, as well as the two oldest Georgian manuscripts, also omit the appendix. The Armenian Version was made in 411-450, and the Old Georgian Version was based mainly on the Armenian Version. One Armenian manuscript, made in 989, features a note, written between 16:8 and 16:9, Ariston eritzou, that is, "By Ariston the Elder/Priest." Ariston, or Aristion, is known from early traditions (preserved by Papias and others) as a colleague of Peter and as a bishop of Smyrna in the first century.

There's more of course, such as the internal evidence within the authenticated portions of Mark do not appear to bear witness to this addition.

That being said, the passage may in fact be valid, thus one does have to fit it into their systems.

Jesus is reported as saying, "he that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned." Notice that the two clauses are not in parallel. Jesus does not say, "he that is baptized not shall be damned..." The emphasis is upon belief and faith in the works of the resurrected Christ. Taken in toto, this does not appear to link the idea of salvation to the act of water baptism.

As an addendum, here are the NET Bible's notes on this passage:

Mark 16:9

9 tc The Gospel of Mark ends at this point in some witnesses (א B 304 sys sams armMSS Eus EusMSS HierMSS), including two of the most respected MSS (א B). The following shorter ending is found in some MSS; "They reported briefly to those around Peter all that they had been commanded. After these things Jesus himself sent out through them, from the east to the west, the holy and imperishable preaching of eternal salvation. Amen." This shorter ending is usually included with the longer ending (L Ψ 083 099 0112 579 al); k, however, ends at this point. Most MSS include the longer ending (Mark 16:9-20) immediately after Mar_16:8 (A C D W [which has a different shorter ending between Mark 16:14 and Mark 16:15] Θ À13 33 2427 œ lat syc,p,h bo); however, Jerome and Eusebius knew of almost no Greek MSS that had this ending. Several MSS have marginal comments noting that earlier Greek MSS lacked the verses, while others mark the text with asterisks or obeli (symbols that scribes used to indicate that the portion of text being copied was spurious). Internal evidence strongly suggests the secondary nature of both the short and the long endings. Their vocabulary and style are decidedly non-Markan (for further details, see TCGNT 102-6). All of this evidence strongly suggests that as time went on scribes added the longer ending, either for the richness of its material or because of the abruptness of the ending at Mark 16:8. (Indeed, the strange variety of dissimilar endings attests to the probability that early copyists had a copy of Mark that ended at Mark 16:8, and they filled out the text with what seemed to be an appropriate conclusion. All of the witnesses for alternative endings to Mark 16:9-20 thus indirectly confirm the Gospel as ending at Mark 16:8.) Because of such problems regarding the authenticity of these alternative endings, Mark 16:8 is usually regarded as the last verse of the Gospel of Mark. There are three possible explanations for Mark ending Mark 16:8; (1) The author intentionally ended the Gospel here in an open-ended fashion; (2) the Gospel was never finished; or (3) the last leaf of the MS was lost prior to copying. This first explanation is the most likely due to several factors, including (a) the probability that the Gospel was originally written on a scroll rather than a Codex (only on a Codex would the last leaf get lost prior to copying); (b) the unlikelihood of the MS not being completed; and (c) the literary power of ending the Gospel so abruptly that the readers are now drawn into the story itself. E. Best aptly states, "It is in keeping with other parts of his Gospel that Mark should not give an explicit account of a conclusion where this is already well known to his readers" (Mark, 73; note also his discussion of the ending of this Gospel on 132 and elsewhere). The readers must now ask themselves, "What will I do with Jesus? If I do not accept him in his suffering, I will not see him in his glory."

sn Double brackets have been placed around this passage to indicate that most likely it was not part of the original text of the Gospel of Mark. In spite of this, the passage has an important role in the history of the transmission of the text, so it has been included in the translation.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by notofworks

Do you really want or need these verses explained? An in-depth exegesis of these verses would take pages and you're the only one, at this point, who's typing pages! We could talk about how Jesus only applied the damnation in Mark 16:16 only to those who believed not but you've already heard that argument, haven't you?

I'm afraid that explaining a random list of verses that appear to back up your theology is a task in which I'm not would be productive. But if you like explaining random verses, try these:

Two-way street bro., You refuse then so do I.

Mike, let me ask you this: Here are 21 verses out of well over 50 that proclaim salvation comes when one believes. If it is not true that salvation comes when one believes, how does one reconcile all this?

Easy! Like I have said all along, FAITH THAT WORTS is the faith that saves. And if the works never follow, there never was saving faith. It's so simple. Why is that so hard to follow?

What is not simple is how righteousness is related to everything.

[notofworks]

Originally Posted by mfblume

Two-way street bro., You refuse then so do I.



Easy! Like I have said all along, FAITH THAT WORTS is the faith that saves. And if the works never follow, there never was saving faith. It's so simple. Why is that so hard to follow?

What is not simple is how righteousness is related to everything.

I didn't know "worts" were involved! Compound W always worked for my warts! (sorry, I know it was a typo, but it just struck me funny)

Mike, so you're saying someone that believes that doesn't follow it up with the works of baptism and tongues didn't really believe in the first place??? That sounds like my old pentecostal past that would beat someone over the head when they first walked in, watch them walk out, and then proclaim, "Well, they just weren't ready."


Why is it so hard to follow? I don't know that it's hard to follow, oh great teacher, but it IS hard to fathom how such a simple thing can confound the wise.

[pelathais]

Originally Posted by mfblume

Colossians 2:11-12 KJV In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ: (12) Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

Mike, are you seeking to equate circumcision as an OT type of baptism? I know (or at least I strongly suspect) TheLegalist would, due to his emphasis upon the covenantal aspects of circumcision. The idea of equating baptism with the OT sign of circumcision doesn't really work when you seek to apply that idea to other passages that discuss OT circumcision as a type of the new birth or salvation.

Ephesians 2:11-18, clearly identifies the NT "circumcision" with the work of Jesus Christ on the cross.

Context is also key here to understanding this passage. Consider: [Colossians 2:6-15 (NET)]

Col 2:6 Therefore, just as you received Christ Jesus as Lord, continue to live your lives in him,
Col 2:7 rooted and built up in him and firm in your faith just as you were taught, and overflowing with thankfulness.
Col 2:8 Be careful not to allow anyone to captivate you through an empty, deceitful philosophy that is according to human traditions and the elemental spirits of the world, and not according to Christ.
Col 2:9 For in him all the fullness of deity lives in bodily form,
Col 2:10 and you have been filled in him, who is the head over every ruler and authority.
Col 2:11 In him you also were circumcised — not, however, with a circumcision performed by human hands, but by the removal of the fleshly body,23 that is, through the circumcision done by Christ.
Col 2:12 Having been buried with him in baptism, you also have been raised with him through your faith in the power of God who raised him from the dead.
Col 2:13 And even though you were dead in your transgressions and in the uncircumcision of your flesh, he nevertheless made you alive with him, having forgiven all your transgressions.
Col 2:14 He has destroyed what was against us, a certificate of indebtedness expressed in decrees opposed to us. He has taken it away by nailing it to the cross.
Col 2:15 Disarming the rulers and authorities, he has made a public disgrace of them, triumphing over them by the cross.

How are we "forgiven all [our] trespasses?" By the cross: Romans 3:25.

The repeated appeal here is made to what Jesus Christ has done on the cross. A lot of folks like to introduce the idea that water baptism is the NT equivalent to OT circumcision - they dance right up and plop the idea down; then when you call them on it, they quickly dance away.

So, are you equating NT water baptism with the OT commands and covenants of circumcision?

[TheLegalist]

Originally Posted by pelathais

The title of the thread is "The Cross Alone Can Save."

Justification, or salvation from the penalty of sin is what the cross does. Can you simply say, "As far as the topic goes, I agree - our faith in the cross alone justifies the believer...?"

Does Faith in the cross include the resurrection? Then NO!

[pelathais]

Originally Posted by mfblume

Acts 22:16 KJV And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.

Romans 6:3-4 KJV Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? (4) Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

1 Peter 3:21 KJV The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

Good for starters.

How are sins "washed away?" Are they washed away by the waters of baptism? NO!

Peter makes this abundantly clear: "...— not the washing off of physical dirt but the pledge of a good conscience to God — through the resurrection of Jesus Christ."

"Getting wet" does nothing, in and of itself. Peter is emphatic about this in the very proof text that "Three Steppers" like to bandy about.

How does "baptism now save us...?" It is clear - we are NOT saved by our obedience to the instruction to be baptized, rather, we are saved by the resurrection of Jesus Christ.

Whatever happened to that "guy who dies in the car on the way to get baptized..." Mike? How does baptism save him? You seem to me to be "alternating" again between "Three Stepper" rhetoric and your own good sense.

Paul's sins were "washed away" when he called "upon the name of the Lord" (Acts 2:21). Ananias of Damascus seems to have had Peter's sermon on Pentecost clearly in mind here.

We are baptized in water in the name of Jesus Christ when we first believe - because of the cross! NOT, "instead of, or in addition to" the cross! We were identified with the "circumcision of Christ" in repentance (Ephesians 2:10-18), and our sins are "remitted," (Romans 3:25), "forgiven" (Colossians 2:13) and we are "redeemed" (Galatians 3:13) - - ALL THIS! BEFORE WE EVEN PUT ON THE BAPTISMAL GOWN.

[pelathais]

Originally Posted by TheLegalist

Does Faith in the cross include the resurrection? Then NO!

Good point, you ornery old quibbler... LOL!

By "cross" we mean everything that is associated with that rather terrible weekend our Lord suffered long ago and His triumph on the first day of the week. As I pointed out in another post - baptism doesn't save us because we get wet. Baptism saves us because of the resurrection of Jesus Christ.