For those that left the UPC...

[Godsdrummer]

Originally Posted by Truthseeker

Bible says he gives eternal salvation too them that obey him.

So them you call Jesus a lier? John 3:1-16 you must read the whole chapter to understand the message. You can't pull two verses out of context in the first part of the chapter and preach salvation of works when the rest of the chapter teached salvation by faith beleiving.

Rom 4:3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.

[Truthseeker]

Originally Posted by Godsdrummer

So them you call Jesus a lier? John 3:1-16 you must read the whole chapter to understand the message. You can't pull two verses out of context in the first part of the chapter and preach salvation of works when the rest of the chapter teached salvation by faith beleiving.

Rom 4:3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.

Isn't believing God is to obey God?? I think so. Believing is obeying! Can't have one without the other.




Heb 5:9

9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that OBEY him;
KJV

2 Thess 1:8

8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that OBEY not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
KJV




Acts 5:32

32 And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that OBEY him.
KJV


Apostles taught salvation and Holy Ghost come by obedience.

[Godsdrummer]

Originally Posted by Truthseeker

Isn't believing God is to obey God?? I think so. Believing is obeying! Can't have one without the other.

Heb 5:9

9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that OBEY him;
KJV

2 Thess 1:8

8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that OBEY not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
KJV

Acts 5:32

32 And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that OBEY him.
KJV

Apostles taught salvation and Holy Ghost come by obedience.

Truth Seeker
Where do you find that? Peter told the crowd on the day of Pentecost that the Holy Ghost was a gift. And what commandments must be obeyed to be saved? The command to be baptized?

You quoted several scriptures with the words obey and salvation in them trying to prove a point that one must obey someones list of commands to have salvation instituted in their lives.

Well here is a news flash, we know that every translation has its differances because new understanding of the greek come to us as time goes on. But one thing God has never left in confusion is how to be saved. But it is not from a plan of works. It is a plan of faith in God.

What works did the children of Isreal have to obey to be save when bitten by the serpent in OT? They had to look at the serpent Moses had lifted up. Now I guess you could say looking up with faith was a work. Every action can be looked at as a work.

But the only action Jesus said to Nicodemus he had to do was to be born again. And it was not a three part plan. John 3:1-16, you can try as long as you like to make born of water into baptism but it just is not there in that passage, unless you take verse 3:5 completely out of contex with the rest of the passage. How do you fit water baptism into looking to the cross with faith to be saved, as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wildreness?

Now don't be drugged by the works based teachings that are all around you, just because a word in your KJB is translated obey does not make it mean what obey in the English language means. Get a good bible dictionary I like Vines. Strongs concordence with the greek and hebrew is good to. If you are not suprised at what you find when you start to check the base meaning of many of the words used to preach works based doctrines I will be suprised.

Just to give you a primer their are at least 3 greek words that are trans. from greed to english as obey, and only one has the significance given by works based teachings and that is found in Ephesians 6:1. this verse is not the only example but then don't take my word for it or your pastor, check it out for your self.

[Truthseeker]

Originally Posted by Godsdrummer

Truth Seeker
Where do you find that? Peter told the crowd on the day of Pentecost that the Holy Ghost was a gift. And what commandments must be obeyed to be saved? The command to be baptized?

You quoted several scriptures with the words obey and salvation in them trying to prove a point that one must obey someones list of commands to have salvation instituted in their lives.

Well here is a news flash, we know that every translation has its differances because new understanding of the greek come to us as time goes on. But one thing God has never left in confusion is how to be saved. But it is not from a plan of works. It is a plan of faith in God.

What works did the children of Isreal have to obey to be save when bitten by the serpent in OT? They had to look at the serpent Moses had lifted up. Now I guess you could say looking up with faith was a work. Every action can be looked at as a work.

But the only action Jesus said to Nicodemus he had to do was to be born again. And it was not a three part plan. John 3:1-16, you can try as long as you like to make born of water into baptism but it just is not there in that passage, unless you take verse 3:5 completely out of contex with the rest of the passage. How do you fit water baptism into looking to the cross with faith to be saved, as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wildreness?

Now don't be drugged by the works based teachings that are all around you, just because a word in your KJB is translated obey does not make it mean what obey in the English language means. Get a good bible dictionary I like Vines. Strongs concordence with the greek and hebrew is good to. If you are not suprised at what you find when you start to check the base meaning of many of the words used to preach works based doctrines I will be suprised.

Just to give you a primer their are at least 3 greek words that are trans. from greed to english as obey, and only one has the significance given by works based teachings and that is found in Ephesians 6:1. this verse is not the only example but then don't take my word for it or your pastor, check it out for your self.

9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that OBEY him

Whta is that saying?

[Godsdrummer]

Originally Posted by Truthseeker

9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that OBEY him

Whta is that saying?

Heb 5:9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;


G5219
ὑπακούω
hupakouō
hoop-ak-oo'-o
From G5259 and G191; to hear under (as a subordinate), that is, to listen attentively; by implication to heed or conform to a command or authority: - hearken, be obedient to, obey.

Read it for yourself, the question is not, we are saved by obediance, this would constitute a list no man could complete to be saved. But rather that our salvation is proved by our obediance as we walk with God.

Jas 2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
Jas 2:18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

In other words after we are saved we become subordinate to God. But salvation is a free gift of God that was paid for us on Calvary. This by no means, means we can live any way we want to after we are saved. As Paul stated in Romans 4 Abraham was made righteouse because of faith, just as we are. But as Abraham obeyed and was circumcised as a seal of his faith, and walked with God. We are saved by faith in the work of Christ on the cross, we are baptized as a seal of our salvation. To not be baptized would be the same as not being circumcised on the OT.

That is the way I see things, I again say this, I don't care to dispute other than to lay things out the way I see them. As far as I am concerned you are intitaled to your opinion.
Rom 14:1 Him that is weak in the faith receive ye, but not to doubtful disputations.
Rom 14:2 For one believeth that he may eat all things: another, who is weak, eateth herbs.
Rom 14:3 Let not him that eateth despise him that eateth not; and let not him which eateth not judge him that eateth: for God hath received him.
Rom 14:4 Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand.

[Truthseeker]

Originally Posted by Godsdrummer

Heb 5:9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;


G5219
ὑπακούω
hupakouō
hoop-ak-oo'-o
From G5259 and G191; to hear under (as a subordinate), that is, to listen attentively; by implication to heed or conform to a command or authority: - hearken, be obedient to, obey.

Read it for yourself, the question is not, we are saved by obediance, this would constitute a list no man could complete to be saved. But rather that our salvation is proved by our obediance as we walk with God.

Jas 2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
Jas 2:18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

In other words after we are saved we become subordinate to God. But salvation is a free gift of God that was paid for us on Calvary. This by no means, means we can live any way we want to after we are saved. As Paul stated in Romans 4 Abraham was made righteouse because of faith, just as we are. But as Abraham obeyed and was circumcised as a seal of his faith, and walked with God. We are saved by faith in the work of Christ on the cross, we are baptized as a seal of our salvation. To not be baptized would be the same as not being circumcised on the OT.


those not circmucised were cut off as well. Does that apply to baptism.


That is the way I see things, I again say this, I don't care to dispute other than to lay things out the way I see them. As far as I am concerned you are intitaled to your opinion.
Rom 14:1 Him that is weak in the faith receive ye, but not to doubtful disputations.
Rom 14:2 For one believeth that he may eat all things: another, who is weak, eateth herbs.
Rom 14:3 Let not him that eateth despise him that eateth not; and let not him which eateth not judge him that eateth: for God hath received him.
Rom 14:4 Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand.

One thing I notice is it says obey him, not a list of rules and such. Many have faith believing in Christ and he died for their sins, but smoke dope, fornicate etc....are they saved? They will confess Christ is lord and raised from the dead.


You qouted James 2 but let's read on to verse 24:

"Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only"


Seems to go against your faith alone position.

[truthseeker3139]

Originally Posted by Truthseeker

One thing I notice is it says obey him, not a list of rules and such. Many have faith believing in Christ and he died for their sins, but smoke dope, fornicate etc....are they saved? They will confess Christ is lord and raised from the dead.


You qouted James 2 but let's read on to verse 24:

"Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only"


Seems to go against your faith alone position.

It's a matter of perspective, in Romans 4 in whose eyes are you justified by faith apart from works? Apart from works, means solely on the basis of faith does God justify the ungodly. Paul is speaking of justification through the eyes of God and not man. In James 2, James is speaking of justification as seen through the eyes of men

[Godsdrummer]

Originally Posted by Truthseeker

One thing I notice is it says obey him, not a list of rules and such. Many have faith believing in Christ and he died for their sins, but smoke dope, fornicate etc....are they saved? They will confess Christ is lord and raised from the dead.

You are the one that just formed a list of rules," but smoke dope, fornicate etc...." what are you trying to say, "Obey what?" If not a list of rules.

You qouted James 2 but let's read on to verse 24:

"Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only"


Seems to go against your faith alone position.

Very good, but you are missing the point. All this is after salvation, has come into our lives. What we are talking about in these passages are the proving points that should be manifested in the live of a saved one. But these do not bring intitial salvation into our lives.

You ask does "those not circmucised were cut off as well. Does that apply to baptism?" Yes there comes a time when God will cut them off if they do not obey his spirit and word. But here is the point I do not beleive we have the authorityj or right to judge anyone as to whether they have God in thier lives or not.
Including smoking dope and commiting fornication. When Jesus said judge not lest you be judged means in all things, We are not to judge each other, we are to show love one to another.
Let me give an example of this and why I beleive we must not look through our human eyes but let God do the work.
My eldest daughter got herself pregnant, thank God she refused to get an abortion as the father wanted her to. Three months before my grandson was born the father came back into my daughter life. He did not want to have a child of his to not have a father his dad had not been in his life. We sat down and had a long talk, I told him that if he stayed around us and he loved God he would come to see things our way in God because if we had the truth, truth would prevail. Three months after my grandson was born my daughter and the father sat down with my wife and I and said they had decided to move into together as the father could support my daughter better. As he lived accross the state.
Now my grandson was 3-4 when the father came to God. My daughter and him still lived together for 2 more years before I performed thier wedding.
Now we want to say they were in sin during that two years. I say God knew the heart and situation.
We say a person must get baptized right away to be saved, I say it does not matter when they get baptized solong as they do. And if for some reason the pass from this life before baptism we are not thier judge.
And finaly what does justification have to do with salvation. Abraham was already saved and obeying God long before he offered Isaac on the alter. Abraham was already counted as righteous even before circumcision.