James Kilgore's Part in the 92 Affirmation Debacle

[onefaith2]

Originally Posted by POWERUP

Not a snowballs chance!!! Especially here in Ms............ But who am I...

Maybe a few of those who don't believe it..... They just sign it...... Man
some folks just don't have the guts!!!!

My pastor was for the affirmation. He quite frequently railed against those who had a TV in their home and signed the paper every year. True they are there but the wording of the manual is not binding as definite either way in some areas (like we disapprove of our people having TVs in their homes)

The WPF is quite frank I understand, no DVDs whatsoever.

The UPCI statement is not so frank and therefore people still sign it.

[CC1]

Originally Posted by Chateau d'If

The affirmation is now "signed" every other year by clicking one button on a computer screen. Also, I know of virtually no ministers who agree with everything in the fundamental doctrine and holiness sections of the manual. There are thousands of nonconformists clicking that little button without really considering the consequences.

A few years ago I spoke to my presbyter as well as my District Superintendent and told them I could no longer sign it in good conscience. They both said to sign it anyway because it's understood that no one agrees with everything in the manual.

For me this is the saddest result of the affirmation statement. It has made liars out of men. The "wink,wink,nod,nod" practice started almost immediately after the affirmation passed and the org. realized what a nightmare it was.

By actively urging preachers to lie by signing something they were not going to uphold this was a terrible chip in the wall of ethics. You keep chipping and eventually there will be no wall.

[POWERUP]

Originally Posted by onefaith2

My pastor was for the affirmation. He quite frequently railed against those who had a TV in their home and signed the paper every year. True they are there but the wording of the manual is not binding as definite either way in some areas (like we disapprove of our people having TVs in their homes)

The WPF is quite frank I understand, no DVDs whatsoever.

The UPCI statement is not so frank and therefore people still sign it.

of2,I know what you mean.............It just frustrates me sometimes when
people talk out of both sides of thier mouth!!!!

Especially ministers............. I've never tried to convince anyone to change
thier view on anything.........

I have sit at dinner tables, meeting tables, etc.... and heard prominient preachers and leaders laugh and joke
about standards and some doctrine......... saying its no big deal............ we just do it to keep the peace..

Then those same get in the pulpit and rail on standards and talk about keeping the old paths..

Makes me want to vomit!!!!!!!!!!!!

[ReformedDave]

Originally Posted by CC1

For me this is the saddest result of the affirmation statement. It has made liars out of men. The "wink,wink,nod,nod" practice started almost immediately after the affirmation passed and the org. realized what a nightmare it

"made liars" or just gave an opportunity?

[POWERUP]

Originally Posted by ReformedDave

"made liars" or just gave an opportunity?

No need to sugar coat it!!!!!!!!!!! Liars Liars............ If its not the truth,
then it's a lie!!

[deacon blues]

Originally Posted by CC1

You beat me to it with this post! I was thinking the same thing. Of couse I always wonder how much is true about how liberal the son is. Sometimes I heard some guy is a lib and then you hear them railing against makeup and jewelry, etc just like any other "good" UPC preacher.

I can assure you, Jim Kilgore will not be heard railing on the above mentioned items. Nancy Kilgore, Jim's wife, just this week had a FB status that said, "I'm not concerned about looking different. Oi want to make a difference." I got to spend some time with them in Pontiac a few years ago. Really genuine and humble people.

[onefaith2]

Originally Posted by POWERUP

of2,I know what you mean.............It just frustrates me sometimes when
people talk out of both sides of thier mouth!!!!

Especially ministers............. I've never tried to convince anyone to change
thier view on anything.........

I have sit at dinner tables, meeting tables, etc.... and heard prominient preachers and leaders laugh and joke
about standards and some doctrine......... saying its no big deal............ we just do it to keep the peace..

Then those same get in the pulpit and rail on standards and talk about keeping the old paths..

Makes me want to vomit!!!!!!!!!!!!

Yes thats sad. It happens because of pressure and I admit its wrong. Sort of like me, I leave someone's salvation to God if they don't speak in tongues, etc. People on this forum portray that an impossibility in regards to UPC views of salvation. Some just need to learn to let a conscience decide the matter for personal beliefs. If these preachers really examined what they believe and why, it would help them decide to stay or decide to leave. Thats what I had to do and while I no longer condemn people for the things I did in the past, I am staying because I can find peace with the beliefs and still uphold my conscience. These men need to also. If they stand in the pulpit and say women go to hell for cutting their hair, they need to believe that. If not, they need to stop saying things that are cookie cutter beliefs that people will say "Amen" to.

Bro. Dillon was approached by a guy who went to JCM who wholeheartedly disagreed with the uncut hair doctrine. He told Bro. Dillon that he doesn't believe it because he doesn't preach it. Bro. Dillon affirmed that he believes the doctrine and quite frequently refers to his wife as to what he believes. But he doesn't condemn and I think thats the part people have trouble with in the UPC or outside the UPC looking in. Everything has to be heaven or hell, sink or swim, white or black. Nothing seems to be able to be church teachings based on the Bible to further please the Lord in our lives. The spirit of the Pharisee isn't just in the UPC, its in every church org in existence in some form.

[POWERUP]

Originally Posted by onefaith2

Yes thats sad. It happens because of pressure and I admit its wrong. Sort of like me, I leave someone's salvation to God if they don't speak in tongues, etc. People on this forum portray that an impossibility in regards to UPC views of salvation. Some just need to learn to let a conscience decide the matter for personal beliefs. If these preachers really examined what they believe and why, it would help them decide to stay or decide to leave. Thats what I had to do and while I no longer condemn people for the things I did in the past, I am staying because I can find peace with the beliefs and still uphold my conscience. These men need to also. If they stand in the pulpit and say women go to hell for cutting their hair, they need to believe that. If not, they need to stop saying things that are cookie cutter beliefs that people will say "Amen" to.

Bro. Dillon was approached by a guy who went to JCM who wholeheartedly disagreed with the uncut hair doctrine. He told Bro. Dillon that he doesn't believe it because he doesn't preach it. Bro. Dillon affirmed that he believes the doctrine and quite frequently refers to his wife as to what he believes. But he doesn't condemn and I think thats the part people have trouble with in the UPC or outside the UPC looking in. Everything has to be heaven or hell, sink or swim, white or black. Nothing seems to be able to be church teachings based on the Bible to further please the Lord in our lives. The spirit of the Pharisee isn't just in the UPC, its in every church org in existence in some form.

I wholeheartily agree with you. If you believe it, say you believe it. Stick
with it..........

I have a friend who pastors in Sebasstopool, Ms. You may know him. He is
as strict as they come. Trust me. Do I agree? Nope..... But I respect his
stand on what he preaches......

He's a young man, and a awesome minister.

I haven't spoke with him in some time, but last time I did he don't associate
with the UPC to much........

To liberal for him..LOL

[onefaith2]

Originally Posted by POWERUP

I wholeheartily agree with you. If you believe it, say you believe it. Stick
with it..........

I have a friend who pastors in Sebasstopool, Ms. You may know him. He is
as strict as they come. Trust me. Do I agree? Nope..... But I respect his
stand on what he preaches......

He's a young man, and a awesome minister.

I haven't spoke with him in some time, but last time I did he don't associate
with the UPC to much........

To liberal for him..LOL

Are you talking about Mark Copeland? I think thats his name and I've preached there years ago.

[deacon blues]

Originally Posted by Chateau d'If

The affirmation is now "signed" every other year by clicking one button on a computer screen. Also, I know of virtually no ministers who agree with everything in the fundamental doctrine and holiness sections of the manual. There are thousands of nonconformists clicking that little button without really considering the consequences.

A few years ago I spoke to my presbyter as well as my District Superintendent and told them I could no longer sign it in good conscience. They both said to sign it anyway because it's understood that no one agrees with everything in the manual.

I used to sign it with the same perspective. I always felt disengenuious about it but justified it in my mind by telling myself, "No one obeys the manual to the letter of the law." I would still feel miserable signing it and mailing it in.

Then a few years ago, we started getting grief from a local pastor and his son in law over the fact that our music minister's wife had been seen wearing jeans in public. Our MM and his wife were invited by the district to do the music at the annual holiday youth convention. This pastor or his son in law played politics and "ratted" on our MM wife for her jean wearing. The district deemed that our MM would be "too divisive" to use for the youth convention and withdrew their invitation.

This was after a summer youth camp where our guy was doing music and a controversy concerning his wife's hair being cut. An "anonymous tipster" called the youth president and told him about it. 5 minutes before service the youth president tells my guy he can't do the music.

Okay. I understand the rules. And if they were applied consistently and fairly I could agree to disagree with the rules but feel like at least they are equitable about their application. But this sint the case.

I knew for a fact that this son-in-law routinely goes to organized and professional sporting events. I know this pastor goes to professional sporting events. I know they watch TV, I know they purchase and watch DVD sets of TV shows that I won't watch because of content. They have a family night where they get together with their adult children and spouses and watch these shows, and they're giddy about it. They just LOVE their shows.

But come campmeeting time, who's choir is singing on the platform? Who's sitting on the platform receiving the offering? Who is helping to run the youth camps and is camp director? You guessed it. When my District Supt met me for lunch one day, he asked me why we weren't as involved as we used to be. I told him the stories. He admitted that the manual was applied inconsistently.

The real problem is that the guys with the big churches, or the right connections, friends, family, the guys who command a lot of money and send in large sums to support the ministries of the organization get a pass on all the ways they violate the manual. Blue collar preachers with smaller congregations, or people without the names, or the political influence are held to a higher standard.

There are preachers who are very high office holders that go to the sporting events, watch every kind of DVD movie out there, TV shows, some own televisions or watch it on the internet, they break as many rules as anyone. But they are safe because of the system they are a part of protects them from scrutiny. As long as the women's standards (holy magic hair, dresses, make up, jewels) and any other outward appearance standards are maintained (beards, shorts, etc---keeping up appearances), you can get a pass on these other things.

I signed my last AS in 2009. As I drove away from the post office I asked God to forgive me for my dishonesty. I vowed to Him I would never sign another one.

I remember Bro Kilgore standing up at a GC, it might have been in Columbus when there was a resolution to remove the AS. He made the statement that the AS made too many liars out of too many people and requested we vote to remove the AS from our fellowship. It wasn't enough to convince the constituency to remove it. Unfortunate.