Yes, I know. One distinct identity that speaks with different voices and sometimes acts like and appears as an animal. You are making no sense at all.
So in the Trinity, so they say, there really are three persons, who do different things and have different voices and act like three persons. In Oneness, you have one person who does different things and has different voices and acts like three persons. But Trinity is sick?
__________________
Hebrews 13:23 Know ye that our brother Timothy is set at liberty
When I was seeking God in my early 20s, in my bumbling way, I relied on God to show me what to do and where to go. I was talking to God as if He was looking down at only me from the heavens.
I questioned everybody I came into contact with about their denominational beliefs. JWs and Mormons knocked on my door. I nixed many denominations pretty quick. I guess one could say that I judged their doctrine. But I judged their doctrine not to be for me and not what I was looking for. You know what started causing me to seek back in 1979? The 700 Club. I watched that program until the desire to know Jesus was born into my heart. God used a television show to reach me.
I am amazed that God in His infinite wisdom and mercy even heard my prayers as a sinner woman, one who greatly sinned. Yet, He led me to the church I was supposed to attend for that time.
A Baptist minister came to my home for discussion and invited me to church. I attended several services including watch night services. I knew that I was supposed to get Baptized and I held off for a while. I pondered for a long time that there was more to changing my life than just professing and getting baptized. I wanted to know what that 'more' was.
God was leading me.
Then one Sunday morning as I got into my car, I felt a nudge to go to the First United Pentecostal Church in my area. I turned left to the UPC instead of right to the Baptist Church. When I got there, the Holy Ghost was so strong upon me that I cried throughout the whole service. I never had that feeling before. I was humiliated at myself because I sat in that pew for the whole service and cried my eyes out. I felt embarassed because people were looking at me. I did not know that this was a normal thing that happens during church services at that time.
This was when I knew this was where God wanted me to be. And I knew that this was where I was supposed to be baptized. I was baptized in Jesus Name at the First UPC Church several weeks later without even knowing the magnitude of being baptized in Jesus Name. This was where God led me. It was a full year later that I understood the importance of Jesus Name baptism.
Now, let me tell you, I was not exactly seeking the finer points in doctrine. Babies don't seek meat and potatoes when they are born. They just want to suckle nourishment from milk. I was just looking for Christ. I was like a blind person who could not see, but could feel, think, taste and smell. All my other senses were kicking in when it came to seeking where I was to go. God led me to the UPC for the Baptism. I don't think I would have gone to any OP church had somebody, pastor or saint, told me I was lost while I was attending the Baptist church. But I would have come to visit if they gently told me that they wanted to 'show me a more excellent way' to Christ.
I love the Name of Jesus. I love that God took care of me during my time of seeking and thereafter and continues to do so.
Now, I have a question for you.
Why is it that the JWs, the Mormons, the Baptist minister and the television preacher were the only ones who came into my home to discuss and talk scripture about God to me? The United Pentecostals did not knock on my door to want bible study or to share scriptures. God led me to them. I would have never known that there was even a UPC church in the city had not one 'lowly' saint came to invite my then husband to service. He did not witness, bless his heart, he just knocked on the door, invite and left.
No. I cannot judge people who are trinitarian's walk with God. I needed that time with these other people so that God can lead me in the way He would have me to go. And YOU don't know how God currently may be dealing with their hearts either.
Oneness folks, imo, have the right baptismal formula, but many of them throw people away afterwards when people do not line up to their extrabiblical standards. Many don't treat folks right. Many don't love folks with a patient, unconditional love like God has for us. Some seem to be incapable of loving people just like they are. Sometimes it takes a lifetime for folks to line up to the OP church standards in full understanding. But many folks are hurried into "their convictions" of the OP standards...almost like it is expected within a certain time frame to have them. And some may never believe certain standards are necessary for salvation. UPC should leave that alone and let them work that out with their Savior.
My Jesus Name Baptism, Holy Ghost and Christ Himself is all I have left. It is enough to sustain me. I do not feel comfortable in any UPC Church in this region because of their actions. It is shameful and it is sad.
And yes, when I find that loving church who loves Christ, tries their very best to do Christ's will and is kind to people despite their faults, I will attend and fellowship with them, even if they are of trinitarian belief because they cannot ever take away what God has put into my heart so they are not a threat to me.
You, old paths, mrnbcox or steve epley can never take my salvation away from me just because I might fellowship with trinitarians and you all cannot make any truthful claim that you know what is in the hearts of God-loving people of other denominations. The Holy Ghost could be dealing with them and you could be hindering the move of the Spirit with your blather.
__________________
It is better to trust in the LORD than to put confidence in man. (Psalms 118:8)
As mentioned in another post Christians are Christians only after being baptized in Jesus' name. Thus the first part is proven simply with common sense. You are not a Christian until His name is invoked in baptism no matter what century.
Note: This is an Apostolic site so I have not emphasized repentance and receiving the Holy Ghost because it is assumed we all agree with this. What was being asked was proof of Christians being baptized in Jesus name and belief in Deu. 6:4.
As to the Deu. 6:4 - it is established that the early church was established upon Juddaic principles. The gospel was established through Judaism. Deu. 6:4 is the single most important verse within Judaism. Therefore in keeping with the monotheism of Judaism Christianity is monotheistic (Deu. 6:4). Proof is not required for this as this is the natural flow of doctrine.
"Proof" is required by those who would argue for a different foundation than Deu. 6:4. Prima Facie evidence is that Christians "born" into a Christianity rooted and established upon Judaism would without question be established upon Deu. 6:4. It is the responsibility of the critic to "prove" otherwise.
So in the Trinity, so they say, there really are three persons, who do different things and have different voices and act like three persons. In Oneness, you have one person who does different things and has different voices and acts like three persons. But Trinity is sick?
That is correct. DID is the new way of talking about MPD. Nowhere does Oneness speak of multiple personalities.
The ONE person of God manifesting Himself in multiple ways is NOT MPD - DID.
If it is your intent to show that Oneness has MPD/DID then present the evidence. I have presented the evidence for the Trinitarian doctrine of three persons in One God and given the diagnosis. It is up to you to prove the diagnosis wrong and/or prove the same diagnosis for the Oneness position which you cannot because there are not distinct persons within the Oneness paradigm.
When I was seeking God in my early 20s, in my bumbling way, I relied on God to show me what to do and where to go. I was talking to God as if He was looking down at only me from the heavens.
I questioned everybody I came into contact with about their denominational beliefs. JWs and Mormons knocked on my door. I nixed many denominations pretty quick. I guess one could say that I judged their doctrine. But I judged their doctrine not to be for me and not what I was looking for. You know what started causing me to seek back in 1979? The 700 Club. I watched that program until the desire to know Jesus was born into my heart. God used a television show to reach me.
I am amazed that God in His infinite wisdom and mercy even heard my prayers as a sinner woman, one who greatly sinned. Yet, He led me to the church I was supposed to attend for that time.
A Baptist minister came to my home for discussion and invited me to church. I attended several services including watch night services. I knew that I was supposed to get Baptized and I held off for a while. I pondered for a long time that there was more to changing my life than just professing and getting baptized. I wanted to know what that 'more' was.
God was leading me.
Then one Sunday morning as I got into my car, I felt a nudge to go to the First United Pentecostal Church in my area. I turned left to the UPC instead of right to the Baptist Church. When I got there, the Holy Ghost was so strong upon me that I cried throughout the whole service. I never had that feeling before. I was humiliated at myself because I sat in that pew for the whole service and cried my eyes out. I felt embarassed because people were looking at me. I did not know that this was a normal thing that happens during church services at that time.
This was when I knew this was where God wanted me to be. And I knew that this was where I was supposed to be baptized. I was baptized in Jesus Name at the First UPC Church several weeks later without even knowing the magnitude of being baptized in Jesus Name. This was where God led me. It was a full year later that I understood the importance of Jesus Name baptism.
Now, let me tell you, I was not exactly seeking the finer points in doctrine. Babies don't seek meat and potatoes when they are born. They just want to suckle nourishment from milk. I was just looking for Christ. I was like a blind person who could not see, but could feel, think, taste and smell. All my other senses were kicking in when it came to seeking where I was to go. God led me to the UPC for the Baptism. I don't think I would have gone to any OP church had somebody, pastor or saint, told me I was lost while I was attending the Baptist church. But I would have come to visit if they gently told me that they wanted to 'show me a more excellent way' to Christ.
I love the Name of Jesus. I love that God took care of me during my time of seeking and thereafter and continues to do so.
Now, I have a question for you.
Why is it that the JWs, the Mormons, the Baptist minister and the television preacher were the only ones who came into my home to discuss and talk scripture about God to me? The United Pentecostals did not knock on my door to want bible study or to share scriptures. God led me to them. I would have never known that there was even a UPC church in the city had not one 'lowly' saint came to invite my then husband to service. He did not witness, bless his heart, he just knocked on the door, invite and left.
No. I cannot judge people who are trinitarian's walk with God. I needed that time with these other people so that God can lead me in the way He would have me to go. And YOU don't know how God currently may be dealing with their hearts either.
Oneness folks, imo, have the right baptismal formula, but many of them throw people away afterwards when people do not line up to their extrabiblical standards. Many don't treat folks right. Many don't love folks with a patient, unconditional love like God has for us. Some seem to be incapable of loving people just like they are. Sometimes it takes a lifetime for folks to line up to the OP church standards in full understanding. But many folks are hurried into "their convictions" of the OP standards...almost like it is expected within a certain time frame to have them. And some may never believe certain standards are necessary for salvation. UPC should leave that alone and let them work that out with their Savior.
My Jesus Name Baptism, Holy Ghost and Christ Himself is all I have left. It is enough to sustain me. I do not feel comfortable in any UPC Church in this region because of their actions. It is shameful and it is sad.
And yes, when I find that loving church who loves Christ, tries their very best to do Christ's will and is kind to people despite their faults, I will attend and fellowship with them, even if they are of trinitarian belief because they cannot ever take away what God has put into my heart so they are not a threat to me.
You, old paths, mrnbcox or steve epley can never take my salvation away from me just because I might fellowship with trinitarians and you all cannot make any truthful claim that you know what is in the hearts of God-loving people of other denominations. The Holy Ghost could be dealing with them and you could be hindering the move of the Spirit with your blather.
I am glad led you to a place where you His name would be invoked over you in baptism. I will not get into my testimony but I never had anyone "invite" me either. As to your question about why some "others" visited but not a OP how in the world can I know that answer? I can't answer that for myself. The fact is God led, thank God He still leads sincere hearts.
So I could easily turn the question around and say since your testimony is one of a sincere person as well as mine we have two witnesses revealing God leads sincere people to truth - Jesus name baptism. The question that begs to be asked is: if we were led why aren't those that came and visited you? Is it possible they are not sincere?
The next thing is that until they are born again they cannot enter heaven period end of story. It does not matter how nice they are or how mean someone else is. You must be born again period.
BTW I am not trying to take away your salvation.
If you loved those people you would try to tell them the truth of Jesus name baptism.
FTR I have Trinitarian friends. I have spoken to them at different times about different things and I have been invited to speak at their churches though it has not yet transpired. I am waiting for God to help me know what to say and when to say it while praying for them.
That is not the type of "fellowship" that is being mentioned IMO. If I am wrong those who feel that way may correct me.
That is correct. DID is the new way of talking about MPD. Nowhere does Oneness speak of multiple personalities.
The ONE person of God manifesting Himself in multiple ways is NOT MPD - DID.
If it is your intent to show that Oneness has MPD/DID then present the evidence. I have presented the evidence for the Trinitarian doctrine of three persons in One God and given the diagnosis. It is up to you to prove the diagnosis wrong and/or prove the same diagnosis for the Oneness position which you cannot because there are not distinct persons within the Oneness paradigm.
I'm not trying to prove anything. What I am saying is your post could have been written, with a few changes, by a Trinny as a critique of Oneness, and it would make more sense. Oneness has a single person who speaks at different times in different voices (as you said), and sometimes appears as an animal (as you said). Further, this hypothetical Trinny might point out that this one person talks to himself, knows different things as different manifestations, has different desires (wills), etc. etc. As three persons doing all these things, THERE IS NO MENTAL ILLNESS!
__________________
Hebrews 13:23 Know ye that our brother Timothy is set at liberty
I'm not trying to prove anything. What I am saying is your post could have been written, with a few changes, by a Trinny as a critique of Oneness, and it would make more sense. Oneness has a single person who speaks at different times in different voices (as you said), and sometimes appears as an animal (as you said). Further, this hypothetical Trinny might point out that this one person talks to himself, knows different things as different manifestations, has different desires (wills), etc. etc. As three persons doing all these things, THERE IS NO MENTAL ILLNESS!
The fallacy of the argument is the same. Oneness doctrine has one person - one God period. For there to be a diagnosis of MPD/DID there fundamentally must be two or more PERSONS/identities of the one being.
Please illustrate where Oneness makes the case for two or more identities of the one being ie God. Without that the fundamental foundation is gone and the house of cards comes tumbling down, Therefore, the Trintiarian cannot accuse Oneness of MPD/DID.
BTW I have made airplane sounds to help children eat. I have acted as a horse while kids were riding me yet I am not diagnosed with MPD/DID because I am ONE PERSON. In Oneness there is ONE GOD period not three.
I am glad led you to a place where you His name would be invoked over you in baptism. I will not get into my testimony but I never had anyone "invite" me either. As to your question about why some "others" visited but not a OP how in the world can I know that answer? I can't answer that for myself. The fact is God led, thank God He still leads sincere hearts.
I suppose my point would be is that many OPs get on forums, get behind the pulpit and talk among themselves about other denominations being 'lost', yet they will not have the courage to step out there to knock on a door to reach out to discuss Jesus Name baptism. If they believe it so much, why don't they do that instead of running trinitarian belief system down? Why don't, when they get on forums where there are many people who believe in the trinitarian doctrine reading the comments, bring to them a 'more excellent way' instead of blathering on about how lost they are?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pliny
So I could easily turn the question around and say since your testimony is one of a sincere person as well as mine we have two witnesses revealing God leads sincere people to truth - Jesus name baptism. The question that begs to be asked is: if we were led why aren't those that came and visited you? Is it possible they are not sincere?
Like your answer to my question, I wish that I could speak for them, but I cannot attest to their sincerity or their commitment to their Lord they profess to love.
I have several theories due to my experience with my fellow believers. One time I asked some of them why did we always have to get together between services to have a 'good time'? Why couldn't we have a time of prayer together. As a new convert, I was surely shocked at some of their answers.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pliny
The next thing is that until they are born again they cannot enter heaven period end of story. It does not matter how nice they are or how mean someone else is. You must be born again period.
I agree you must be born again, but many people hinder the Holy Spirit in drawing souls to God. It IS about being nice or mean. The reason, imo that Christ was so effective to the people is because the people could feel his sincerity and love. It emanated from Him into the hearts of the people. He came to the Jews and yet gave to people who were not jews but believed and had faith.
His staunchest opponents were mostly the leadership of the jews, people in power over others. They abused that power and Christ called them on it.
So...when we witness to others, do we emanate the Holy Spirit. Can the people we witness to feel the sincerity? Or do they see someone who looks angry yelling telling people that they are lost because they believe the trinitarian doctrine? Do they see someone flippantly saying they are lost because they believe the trinitarian doctrine instead of giving them some real meat to chew on, pray on?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pliny
BTW I am not trying to take away your salvation.
No, you cannot ever take away my salvation by anything you say or post, but many people are new in Christ and have not had time for that seed to take root and grow. Jesus said in His parable of the seed:
Luke 8:11-15 Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God.
12 Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.
13 They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.
14 And that which fell among thorns are they, which, when they have heard, go forth, and are choked with cares and riches and pleasures of this life, and bring no fruit to perfection.
15 But that on the good ground are they, which in an honest and good heart, having heard the word, keep it, and bring forth fruit with patience.
How many people newly profess their love for Christ and may have found that love in a trinitarian church system will read the comments here that they are lost? We don't know. Sheesh. Give them some time to grow so that Satan does not use your words to take away what they just found.
And how many people have lived for God for years in the trinitarian doctrine, felt God, had miracles in their lives, have their liberty in Christ only to read posts by some that they are lost?
Mark 9:38-40 ¶And John answered him, saying, Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name, and he followeth not us: and we forbad him, because he followeth not us.
39 But Jesus said, Forbid him not: for there is no man which shall do a miracle in my name, that can lightly speak evil of me.
40 For he that is not against us is on our part.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pliny
If you loved those people you would try to tell them the truth of Jesus name baptism.
What makes you think that I don't? I don't have to tell them they are lost. We just have to ask God for a helping of His wisdom when discussing truth with them. Many of them are quite sincere in their walk. God has His way to lead the sincere into the truth, just like He did you and I. It will be up them to find that way.
All the television preacher kept saying was that now you believe, you need to be baptized. I asked God to be baptized, He led me to where He wanted me to be baptized. I never knew that there was any difference in Baptisms. I went where God led me.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pliny
FTR I have Trinitarian friends. I have spoken to them at different times about different things and I have been invited to speak at their churches though it has not yet transpired. I am waiting for God to help me know what to say and when to say it while praying for them.
I am confident that God will give you the right words to reach them if YOU are sincere in wanting to reach them. Being flippant will never reach anybody. Sincerity will. The Holy Ghost will work through that sincerity to reach people.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pliny
That is not the type of "fellowship" that is being mentioned IMO. If I am wrong those who feel that way may correct me.
Most people use the world "fellowship" as in spending a time enjoying each other's company. This is the context in which people understand that word.
Some preachers use that word as in like minded group...such as "oneness pentecostal fellowship".
A good rule of thumb when using the word fellowship would be to be mindful of which group of people you are talking to. Your fellow preachers or the people preachers claim to lead...although I believe that Christ never intended for His church to be classified into two different categories such as clergy and laity.
__________________
It is better to trust in the LORD than to put confidence in man. (Psalms 118:8)
AYR
We are on the other side of that coin God lead us out from false teachings. The Assembly God Church we went to the very morning we left had a tongues and interpretation how the shackles and bonds had been broken and that He led us out.
We had never been to that church ever and prior to that morning I was a stuck in my suit Oneness Pentecostal. I have seen to much and have eaten the Word and have closer to walk with Jesus because I dropped my made made exceptions of whom He calls His child.
If Christ wanted us back in Oneness we would know it and would obey.
__________________
Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand. (Romans 14:4)
Scripture is its own interpreter. Nothing can cut a diamond but a diamond. Nothing can interpret Scripture but Scripture" Thomas Watson.
I suppose my point would be is that many OPs get on forums, get behind the pulpit and talk among themselves about other denominations being 'lost', yet they will not have the courage to step out there to knock on a door to reach out to discuss Jesus Name baptism. If they believe it so much, why don't they do that instead of running trinitarian belief system down? Why don't, when they get on forums where there are many people who believe in the trinitarian doctrine reading the comments, bring to them a 'more excellent way' instead of blathering on about how lost they are?
Hmmm... I thought this was supposed to be an Apostolic Forum that adhered to the Oneness of God and baptism in Jesus name etc. What is said here is not necessarily the same way a message would be conveyed in another environment. BTW other denominations are lost of they are not born again. It is up to the ministry to point this out. To make sure the sheep know where the wolves are. Jesus said many would come in His name and deceive many, one of the responsibilities of the ministry is to tell people where the good grass is and lead them away from the poisonous weeds.How do you know what other people are doing to reach the lost? This makes you sound bitter and no I am not saying you are because I do not know you. Yet this post appears bitter. You condemn the ministry for what you think is wrong but don't know the level of burden the ministry carries. It is a weight that is ever present. Not only in feeding the sheep but having those same sheep bite you behind your back. You may want to back off a bit on the condemnation of the ministry. I have been on Trinitarian forums and I can attest to the hatred and vitriol spewed forth from them concerning this truth. An alcoholic must first recognize he needs help before he asks for help. Trinitarian's need to know they are not born again.
Like your answer to my question, I wish that I could speak for them, but I cannot attest to their sincerity or their commitment to their Lord they profess to love.
I have several theories due to my experience with my fellow believers. One time I asked some of them why did we always have to get together between services to have a 'good time'? Why couldn't we have a time of prayer together. As a new convert, I was surely shocked at some of their answers.
I agree you must be born again, but many people hinder the Holy Spirit in drawing souls to God. It IS about being nice or mean. The reason, imo that Christ was so effective to the people is because the people could feel his sincerity and love. It emanated from Him into the hearts of the people. He came to the Jews and yet gave to people who were not jews but believed and had faith.
Some people need a two by four to hit them in the head to get them to wake up. Others need a more gentle hand. I have seen both work. Love does not always mean mushy gushy behavior. Love is sometimes stern. All in all we must be led of the Spirit.
His staunchest opponents were mostly the leadership of the jews, people in power over others. They abused that power and Christ called them on it.
So...when we witness to others, do we emanate the Holy Spirit. Can the people we witness to feel the sincerity? Or do they see someone who looks angry yelling telling people that they are lost because they believe the trinitarian doctrine? Do they see someone flippantly saying they are lost because they believe the trinitarian doctrine instead of giving them some real meat to chew on, pray on?
Sincerity is a must. People will smell a phony a mile away.
No, you cannot ever take away my salvation by anything you say or post, but many people are new in Christ and have not had time for that seed to take root and grow. Jesus said in His parable of the seed:
Luke 8:11-15 Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God.
12 Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.
13 They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.
14 And that which fell among thorns are they, which, when they have heard, go forth, and are choked with cares and riches and pleasures of this life, and bring no fruit to perfection.
15 But that on the good ground are they, which in an honest and good heart, having heard the word, keep it, and bring forth fruit with patience.
How many people newly profess their love for Christ and may have found that love in a trinitarian church system will read the comments here that they are lost? We don't know. Sheesh. Give them some time to grow so that Satan does not use your words to take away what they just found.
Again this is an Apostolic site... As Apostolics we must stand for and earnestly contend for this faith. Should apostolics never mention the trinity? Should we never mention alcoholism? Should we never mention adultery? Hogwash I will stand for the truth and speak the truth in love.
And how many people have lived for God for years in the trinitarian doctrine, felt God, had miracles in their lives, have their liberty in Christ only to read posts by some that they are lost?
Mark 9:38-40 ¶And John answered him, saying, Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name, and he followeth not us: and we forbad him, because he followeth not us.
39 But Jesus said, Forbid him not: for there is no man which shall do a miracle in my name, that can lightly speak evil of me.
40 For he that is not against us is on our part.
Jesus also said many shall unto me in that day Lord, Lord have we not...
And Jesus will say I never knew you. I will take the chance and let people know they are lost, speaking the truth in love.
What makes you think that I don't? I don't have to tell them they are lost. We just have to ask God for a helping of His wisdom when discussing truth with them. Many of them are quite sincere in their walk. God has His way to lead the sincere into the truth, just like He did you and I. It will be up them to find that way.
It is the responsibility of the church to shine the light of this glorious gospel. You say you don't have to tell them they are lost. By this you are stating that you are placing a covering over the gospel so the light does not shine forth. If the gospel be hid it is hid to them that are lost. What other purpose is the church here for? Potlucks? It is up to them to accept the truth and it is up to the church to proclaim the truth.
I am confident that God will give you the right words to reach them if YOU are sincere in wanting to reach them. Being flippant will never reach anybody. Sincerity will. The Holy Ghost will work through that sincerity to reach people.
I agree.
Most people use the world "fellowship" as in spending a time enjoying each other's company. This is the context in which people understand that word.
Some preachers use that word as in like minded group...such as "oneness pentecostal fellowship".
A good rule of thumb when using the word fellowship would be to be mindful of which group of people you are talking to. Your fellow preachers or the people preachers claim to lead...although I believe that Christ never intended for His church to be classified into two different categories such as clergy and laity.
Actually God does make a difference. The bishop must be...
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