He is Still Oneness Pentecostal In Heart

[seekerman]

Originally Posted by bishoph

IMHO the truth of the matter is that most "Trinitarians" are oneness. In other words, if you ask them how many God's there are they will say ONE. If you ask them how many they will see in heaven, most will say ONE. A few who don't really understand may say three but that is rare among the congregants. Now when it comes to preachers, teachers, and other more learned or indoctrinated leaders is when you really see the three in one defended and promoted.

Again, MHO is that where the Trinitarian doctrine becomes an exceedingly dangerous and damnedable doctrine for the masses is: that while by and large they see/understand only one God, the baptism is tainted with the DNA of false doctrine.

There is only ONE baptism that is right according to scripture. I didn't say it the scriptures declare it. A friend of mine recently published a book entitled "Everybody Can't be Right" and I agree. Is there more of God I need? Absolutely! Is there more that I need to learn of his Word? Absolutely! Have I ever been wrong on something concerning faith and doctrine? Absolutely! Is it possible that I am wrong in declaring that there is only one way to be saved? Absolutely NOT!

What about those over the last 2000 years that did not know/practice what we know/practice? Not my concern! I am only responsible for what I know is truth from the Word of God. I am not the judge of the whole earth, but I am responsible to be obedient to what I know.

And if we want to follow that line of reasoning......God has always made a way for everyone who will to believe/obey him unto salvation. With Noah's generation grace preached righteousness and a warning to the people, they could have gotten on the ark.....when they didn't they were excluded and perished. With the children of Israel who were under the law, grace allowed any "stranger" to convert and serve the one true God......for those that chose not to.....they were excluded and perished. We come to the church age, and God puts forth his redemptive plan and details how we can accept it. Those who do will be saved, all others will be excluded and lost. It's not his will, and it certainly is not mine......Just like Jesus, I wish all would come repentance and know HIM.

But whether a man is saved or lost who died after say 150AD and before 1900AD and did not know/understand/or follow the biblical doctrine of salvation, has no bearing on my obedience or salvation. If God damns all of them to hell because HIS Word was declared and they refused to obey, or whether they never heard the message at all and he sends them to hell it does not negate my responsibility to obey truth. And if God allows all of them into heaven because they did not know and they walked in "all the light they knew" it still does not alter my responsibility to obey HIS Word.

Simply not addressing the very very huge problem of the invisibility of the Church of Jesus Christ before 1913 doesn't make the problem go away. Either the Church of Jesus Christ was alive and well before 1913 or it wasn't. If it was, the Church was alive and well apart from the salvation doctrine of the oneness pentecostal sect which suddenly appeared in 1913. If in fact the Church was dead and buried for almost 2000 years, until it's sudden resurrection in 1913, then that presents yet another problem.

The truth is this, the Church of Jesus Christ was alive and well long before the sudden appearance of oneness pentecostalism in 1913 and is far larger than the relatively tiny little sect of oneness pentecostalism of today.

Oneness pentecostals aren't the sole representatives or members of the Church of Jesus Christ. Some oneness pentecostals are slowly recognizing that, others keep their heads stuck in the sand of ignorance.

[Jermyn Davidson]

Originally Posted by Praxeas

Oneness teaches Jesus eternally exists

Not as the Son though.

You and I have discussed this distinction before.

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by Jermyn Davidson

Not as the Son though.

You and I have discussed this distinction before.

So what you said was wrong. They DO teach He existed before becoming human

[hometown guy]

Originally Posted by Praxeas

Not a unity of Persons.

Trinitarians teach God is numeically 1 being that is Tripersonal

[bishoph]

Originally Posted by seekerman

Simply not addressing the very very huge problem of the invisibility of the Church of Jesus Christ before 1913 doesn't make the problem go away. Either the Church of Jesus Christ was alive and well before 1913 or it wasn't. If it was, the Church was alive and well apart from the salvation doctrine of the oneness pentecostal sect which suddenly appeared in 1913. If in fact the Church was dead and buried for almost 2000 years, until it's sudden resurrection in 1913, then that presents yet another problem.

The truth is this, the Church of Jesus Christ was alive and well long before the sudden appearance of oneness pentecostalism in 1913 and is far larger than the relatively tiny little sect of oneness pentecostalism of today.

Oneness pentecostals aren't the sole representatives or members of the Church of Jesus Christ. Some oneness pentecostals are slowly recognizing that, others keep their heads stuck in the sand of ignorance.

I understand your point, however, I personally believe that your position is somewhat flawed.....and I assure you I am not one with my head stuck in the sand!

However, for the sake of discussion.......the lack of a provable and continual chain of oneness believers who taught Jesus name baptism, and the infilling of the Holy Ghost speaking with other tongues does not mean that they did not exist. History does give us snippets of info on sects throughout history that were without a doubt oneness......but as you already know, most of the info about these groups was destroyed by the Catholic church along with their physical annihilation; and what little info we do have comes from those who hated and destroyed them.

Secondly, if your second scenario were true and the church went into complete apostasy with only small breakaway groups that tried to reform/oppose them to the point of annihilation and then a restoration of that glorious church beginning at the reformation and finishing (doctrinally) with the revelation of Jesus name baptism in 1914; I do not see that as a problem. "But the scripture says the gates of hell shall not prevail against the church." If the church is alive and well today, even if it went through a period of darkness and apostasy, the gates of hell have not prevailed. (and I actually don't believe that Jesus was speaking about a centuries long battle in which the church would prevail anyway.....I tend to believe that he was addressing the present day location and culture. And yet I do believe the church will prevail in the end....go figure!)

[Jermyn Davidson]

Originally Posted by Praxeas

So what you said was wrong. They DO teach He existed before becoming human

Prax,
You know what I mean.

As a Oneness Pentecostal, do you believe that the SON pre-existed as the SON before Bethlehem?

Most Trinitarians say yes, while most Apostolics say no.

I say yes, but I don't consider myself a Trinitarian.

[n david]

Originally Posted by bishoph

......but as you already know, most of the info about these groups was destroyed by the Catholic church along with their physical annihilation; and what little info we do have comes from those who hated and destroyed them.

I've often wished to be able to go into the Vatican and read the old and ancient books they've hidden and kept from the public for centuries. Bet we'd be surprised at what may be recorded by the RCC.

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by Jermyn Davidson

Prax,
You know what I mean.

No, I don't

As a Oneness Pentecostal, do you believe that the SON pre-existed as the SON before Bethlehem?

No but He did exist as a Person who is God

Most Trinitarians say yes, while most Apostolics say no.

That doesn't mean that Jesus did not pre-exist though

I say yes, but I don't consider myself a Trinitarian.

Is the Son someone other than the Father?

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by n david

I've often wished to be able to go into the Vatican and read the old and ancient books they've hidden and kept from the public for centuries. Bet we'd be surprised at what may be recorded by the RCC.

I've often wished to be able to go into the Vatican and see of the rumors were true to begin with...that they had a bunch of ancient books they've kept from the public for centuries

[FlamingZword]

Originally Posted by Praxeas

I've often wished to be able to go into the Vatican and see of the rumors were true to begin with...that they had a bunch of ancient books they've kept from the public for centuries

The RCC has massive amounts of information some of it public and some of it hidden away in the vatican libraries.

The main problem with most of the public books is that many of them have been edited and changed throughout the centuries, mostly to fit Catholic doctrine.

The RCC burned thousands of books they deemed heretical.

Everybody attacks the arians beliefs, but the truth is that no one knows what the arians really believe for their original writings were destroyed.
What everyone attacks is the caricature of their beliefs that their enemies have created of them.

Come one someone show me a true arian book, where is it?
Then how can you even debunk what the arians believe if you do not have a single document of theirs?