Come Out Of Her My People

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by n david

The two or three in verse 20 is the SAME two or three of the verses preceding, which is Not about services or where you assemble. It's about a brother having fault with another brother, and it's taken from Deuteronomy 19.

Even "research" on the internet will tell you the same. And you're not the only one to take it out of context. A lady at my church did the same thing today, and I've heard several Pastors even use it when attendance is down.

If Jesus promises to be in the midst wherever two or three gather together in His name, then does this not mean that wherever two or three are gathered together in His name, He is there?

Jesus gave that as a REASON why the binding and/or loosing of things would be effectual. It is effectual because, when two or three are gathered in the authority of Jesus Christ, it is the same as if He were personally present (which He is, by His Spirit).

Otherwise, there is no promise for Christ to be present with us in a corporate gathering of the church unless it is for the purpose of church discipline only.

For where two or three are gathered together
This seems to be said in opposition to a Jewish notion, that a number less than ten, is not a congregation F1; whereas, though the number is ever so few that are met together to pray to God; or to hear his word, attend on his ordinances, or do the business of his house, or transact any affair that is for the glory of God, and the good of souls, in my name, says Christ; that is, by his authority, depending on his assistance, calling upon his name, and making use of it, and seeking the glory of it:

there am I in the midst of them;
presiding over them, ruling in their hearts, directing their counsels, assisting them in all they are concerned, confirming what they do, and giving a blessing and success to all they are engaged in. The Jews, though they say there is no congregation less than ten, yet own that the divine presence may be with a lesser number, even as small an one as here mentioned F2.

``Ten that sit and study in the law, the Shechaniah dwells among them, as it is said, ( Psalms 82:1 ) . From whence does this appear, if but five? from ( Amos 9:6 ) , from whence, if but three? from ( Psalms 82:1 ) , from whence, if but two? from ( Malachi 3:16 ) , from whence, if but one? from ( Exodus 20:24 ) .''

And again F3,

``two that sit together, and the words of the law are between them, the Shechaniah dwells among them, according to ( Malachi 3:16 ) , from whence does it appear, that if but one sits and studies in the law, the holy blessed God hath fixed a reward for him? from ( Lamentations 3:28 ) .''

(From John Gill's Exposition of the Bible.)

19. Again I say unto you, That if two of you shall agree on earth as touching anything that they shall ask, it shall be done for them of my Father which is in heaven.

20. For where two or three are gathered together in my name--or "unto my name."
there am I in the midst of them--On this passage--so full of sublime encouragement to Christian union in action and prayer--observe, first, the connection in which it stands. Our Lord had been speaking of church meetings before which the obstinate perversity of a brother was in the last resort to be brought, and whose decision was to be final--such honor does the Lord of the Church put upon its lawful assemblies. But not these assemblies only does He deign to countenance and honor. For even two uniting to bring any matter before Him shall find that they are not alone, for My Father is with them, says Jesus. Next, observe the premium here put upon union in prayer. As this cannot exist with fewer than two, so by letting it down so low as that number, He gives the utmost conceivable encouragement to union in this exercise. But what kind of union? Not an agreement merely to pray in concert, but to pray for some definite thing. "As touching anything which they shall ask," says our Lord--anything they shall agree to ask in concert. At the same time, it is plain He had certain things at that moment in His eye, as most fitting and needful subjects for such concerted prayer. The Twelve had been "falling out by the way" about the miserable question of precedence in their Master's kingdom, and this, as it stirred their corruptions, had given rise--or at least was in danger of giving rise--to "offenses" perilous to their souls. The Lord Himself had been directing them how to deal with one another about such matters. "But now shows He unto them a more excellent way." Let them bring all such matters--yea, and everything whatsoever by which either their own loving relationship to each other, or the good of His kingdom at large, might be affected--to their Father in heaven; and if they be but agreed in petitioning Him about that thing, it shall be done for them of His Father which is in heaven. But further, it is not merely union in prayer for the same thing--for that might be with very jarring ideas of the thing to be desired--but it is to symphonious prayer, the prayer by kindred spirits, members of one family, servants of one Lord, constrained by the same love, fighting under one banner, cheered by assurances of the same victory; a living and loving union, whose voice in the divine ear is as the sound of many waters. Accordingly, what they ask "on earth" is done for them, says Jesus, "of My Father which is in heaven." Not for nothing does He say, "of MY FATHER"--not "YOUR FATHER"; as is evident from what follows: "For where two or three are gathered together unto My name"--the "My" is emphatic, "there am I in the midst of them." As His name would prove a spell to draw together many clusters of His dear disciples, so if there should be but two or three, that will attract Himself down into the midst of them; and related as He is to both the parties, the petitioners and the Petitioned--to the one on earth by the tie of His assumed flesh, and to the other in heaven by the tie of His eternal Spirit--their symphonious prayers on earth would thrill upward through Him to heaven, be carried by Him into the holiest of all, and so reach the Throne. Thus will He be the living Conductor of the prayer upward, and the answer downward.

(From Jamieson, Faussett, and Brown's Commentary.)

(2.) The presence of Christ in the assemblies of Christians, v. 20. Every believer has the presence of Christ with him; but the promise here refers to the meetings where two or three are gathered in his name, not only for discipline, but for religious worship, or any act of Christian communion. Assemblies of Christians for holy purposes are hereby appointed, directed, and encouraged.

(From Matthew Henry's Commentary.)

Verse 20. Where two or three are gathered together in my name - That is, to worship me. I am in the midst of them - By my Spirit, to quicken their prayers, guide their counsels, and answer their petitions.

(John Welsey's Commentary.)

The idea that verse 20 promises the presence of Christ in an assembly of two or three believers only in connection with a disciplinary matter is unfounded.

[n david]

Originally Posted by Esaias

If Jesus promises to be in the midst wherever two or three gather together in His name, then does this not mean that wherever two or three are gathered together in His name, He is there?

There is no arbitrary number for Jesus being in the midst, or dwelling among a believer! To say that Jesus is there for two or three is to say He is NOT there for one or four or more! It's absurd that this verse is used as a guide for His being in the midst. I don't know about you, but whenever I pray alone, He's there. I don't need one or two more people with me when I pray in order for Jesus to be there.

Originally Posted by Esaias

Jesus gave that as a REASON why the binding and/or loosing of things would be effectual. It is effectual because, when two or three are gathered in the authority of Jesus Christ, it is the same as if He were personally present (which He is, by His Spirit).

The idea that verse 20 promises the presence of Christ in an assembly of two or three believers only in connection with a disciplinary matter is unfounded.

So Jesus is not present when you pray alone? What about if there are more than just two or three, is He still in the midst? If, as you say, verse 20 is not about disciplinary matter, why then attach an arbitrary number to it? Why would Jesus, if speaking just about His presence being in a believers midst, why would he attach any number at all?

Because it stems from Deuteronomy 19:

15One witness shall not rise up against a man for any iniquity, or for any sin, in any sin that he sinneth: at the mouth of two witnesses, or at the mouth of three witnesses, shall the matter be established. 16If a false witness rise up against any man to testify against him that which is wrong; 17Then both the men, between whom the controversy is, shall stand before the LORD, before the priests and the judges, which shall be in those days; 18And the judges shall make diligent inquisition: and, behold, if the witness be a false witness, and hath testified falsely against his brother; 19Then shall ye do unto him, as he had thought to have done unto his brother: so shalt thou put the evil away from among you. 20And those which remain shall hear, and fear, and shall henceforth commit no more any such evil among you. 21And thine eye shall not pity; but life shall go for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot.

Verses 15-22 are all about dealing with this as a whole. The binding and loosing directly deals with the fault or sin. If the person is unwilling to hear, unwilling to repent, he is bound to the sin; if he is willing, he can be loosed from the sin.

Originally Posted by Esaias

Otherwise, there is no promise for Christ to be present with us in a corporate gathering of the church unless it is for the purpose of church discipline only.

If Jesus is with us individually, why would you believe He wouldn't be with us corporately? It makes no sense.

Originally Posted by Esaias

The idea that verse 20 promises the presence of Christ in an assembly of two or three believers only in connection with a disciplinary matter is unfounded.

Deuteronomy 19 and Matthew 18 prove it's true.

[renee819]

Originally Posted by renee819

Wrong David, Matt 18:19 is about prayer.

Verse 20, is what I said. Anytime, 2 or 3 Christians are gathered together in Jesus name, He is in the midst of them. Why? Among other things, to answer the prayers, that they agree on and ask the Father to do.

Look at the context David,

I took nothing out of context

David wrote

The two or three in verse 20 is the SAME two or three of the verses preceding, which is Not about services or where you assemble. It's about a brother having fault with another brother, and it's taken from Deuteronomy 19.

Even "research" on the internet will tell you the same. And you're not the only one to take it out of context. A lady at my church did the same thing today, and I've heard several Pastors even use it when attendance is down

.

Did you ever notice how Jesus changes subjects? Don't tell me that verse 19 is not about prayer. What are they praying about? The offence? They could, but Jesus said, ANYTHING, That word and the word AGAIN, shows that He has changed the subject temporarily.

Matthew 18:19 Again I say unto you, That if two of you shall agree on earth as touching any thing that they shall ask, it shall be done for them of my Father which is in heaven

.

AGAIN---Usage Notes:
..
English Words used in KJV:
again 142
[Total Count: 142]
..
probably from the same as <G3823> (pale) (through the idea of oscillatory repetition); (adverb) anew, i.e. (of place) back, (of time) once more, or (conjecture) furthermore or on the other hand :- again.


Again (FURTHER MORE—-ON THE OTHER HAND) I say unto you, That if two of you shall agree on earth as touching any thing that they shall ask, (THE CONTEXT IS---AGREE AND PRAY ABOUT---ANYTHING)

Who can do this? “If two of you!” Then Jesus goes on to say, “For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.”

Jesus has switched the subject, Peter, brings it back to the original subject of trespasses, in verse 21. it could have been at the same time, or it could have been the next day.

What has the 2 or 3 witness's got to do with the 2 praying about ANYTHING? Or 2 or 3 meeting in the name of Jesus and He promises to be in their midst.?

If they were going to pray about the trespasses, and in answer to their prayer Jesus shows them who the guilty party is, then why do they need 2 or 3 witness's?
The 2 or 3 witnesses, could even be non-Christians​, that saw the sin committed.

In answer to your comment, "The two or three in verse 20 is the SAME two or three of the verses preceding, which is Not about services or where you assemble. It's about a brother having fault with another brother"
Is God going to be in the midst of the 2 or 3 witness's?

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by n david

There is no arbitrary number for Jesus being in the midst, or dwelling among a believer! To say that Jesus is there for two or three is to say He is NOT there for one or four or more! It's absurd that this verse is used as a guide for His being in the midst. I don't know about you, but whenever I pray alone, He's there. I don't need one or two more people with me when I pray in order for Jesus to be there.


So Jesus is not present when you pray alone? What about if there are more than just two or three, is He still in the midst? If, as you say, verse 20 is not about disciplinary matter, why then attach an arbitrary number to it? Why would Jesus, if speaking just about His presence being in a believers midst, why would he attach any number at all?

Because it stems from Deuteronomy 19:



Verses 15-22 are all about dealing with this as a whole. The binding and loosing directly deals with the fault or sin. If the person is unwilling to hear, unwilling to repent, he is bound to the sin; if he is willing, he can be loosed from the sin.


If Jesus is with us individually, why would you believe He wouldn't be with us corporately? It makes no sense.


Deuteronomy 19 and Matthew 18 prove it's true.

Everything you said applies to your own position as well.

The scripture is clear - Jesus promises to be with us wherever two or three gather in His name.

Argue with it if you want, but His Words mean what they say.

[n david]

Originally Posted by Esaias

Everything you said applies to your own position as well.

The scripture is clear - Jesus promises to be with us wherever two or three gather in His name.

Argue with it if you want, but His Words mean what they say.

You ignored the question, so I'll ask again: Is Jesus with one believer in prayer? Is He with four or more gathered together in corporate worship?

And His words about "two or three", in context, are about dealing with trespass or sin.

[houston]

Is she serious?? Jesus didn't change the subject.

[n david]

Originally Posted by renee819

Did you ever notice how Jesus changes subjects? Don't tell me that verse 19 is not about prayer. What are they praying about? The offence? They could, but Jesus said, ANYTHING, That word and the word AGAIN, shows that He has changed the subject temporarily.

Jesus wasn't changing subjects here! Verse 19 and 20 are a reiteration of verses 15-18. Verse 19 is about the binding and loosing, and deals with the fault and how the brother in fault responds. Yes, they are agreeing and asking concerning the trespass.

The word "Again" does not mean Jesus changed the subject; it just means He is re-emphasizing His point. It's funny you missed the part of your own definition of "again" where it speaks of repetition. Furthermore, do you understand what "furthermore" means? It doesn't mean to change the subject. It's means to give addition to the present subject.

Originally Posted by renee819

Again (FURTHER MORE—-ON THE OTHER HAND) I say unto you, That if two of you shall agree on earth as touching any thing that they shall ask, (THE CONTEXT IS---AGREE AND PRAY ABOUT---ANYTHING)

The context is not agree and pray about anything. Context is what surrounds the verse in question.

Originally Posted by renee819

Who can do this? “If two of you!” Then Jesus goes on to say, “For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.”

Jesus isn't with you when you pray alone? When you ask God for something in your solitary time of prayer, He's not with you and doesn't answer?

Originally Posted by renee819

Jesus has switched the subject, Peter, brings it back to the original subject of trespasses, in verse 21. it could have been at the same time, or it could have been the next day.

Again, as stated previously, Jesus did not change the subject.

Originally Posted by renee819

What has the 2 or 3 witness's got to do with the 2 praying about ANYTHING? Or 2 or 3 meeting in the name of Jesus and He promises to be in their midst.?

Read Deuteronomy 19:15-21. The witnesses stood before the Lord, the priests and judges. The judgement or pardon was done before the Lord, just as the binding and loosing is done in Matthew 18.

Originally Posted by renee819

If they were going to pray about the trespasses, and in answer to their prayer Jesus shows them who the guilty party is, then why do they need 2 or 3 witness's? The 2 or 3 witnesses, could even be non-Christians​, that saw the sin committed.

Where in those verses does it say Jesus shows them who the guilty party is? Don't add to the verse to try and prove your point. It says nothing about Jesus showing them who it is; this is why the 2 or 3 witnesses is required.

[renee819]

Thank YOU, Esaias!!!!

Now, I need another witness, not only on this sidetrack subject, but the fact that the Church needs to come out of Paganism.
But first, their eyes has to be opened to the Pagan practices that has been handed down.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by n david

You ignored the question, so I'll ask again: Is Jesus with one believer in prayer? Is He with four or more gathered together in corporate worship?

The question is silly. But let's follow the silliness to it's conclusion. Here's a question for YOU: Since you affirm not only that Jesus is with the single, solitary individual, then why does Jesus need to say He is there in the midst of two or three? According to you, it seems Jesus is NOT there (even when dealing with a brother in a trespass) if there are four or five witnesses who have gathered together. After all, since (as you so wonderfully assert) Jesus being in the midst of two or three must somehow rule out one or four...

And His words about "two or three", in context, are about dealing with trespass or sin.

His words about two or three, in context, are about the fact that when two or three believers gather together in His name, He is there. One believer does not a church make. One believer cannot enforce church discipline or carry on any of the functions of the church by themselves.

Jesus did not say nor did He mean 'my words about two or three being gathered together do not apply anywhere else or at any other time, other than when dealing with a brother who sins.'

Notice THE CONTEXT of the TEXT:

18 Verily I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

19 Again I say unto you, That if two of you shall agree on earth as touching any thing that they shall ask, it shall be done for them of my Father which is in heaven.

20 For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.

See that little word 'for'? It means BECAUSE. Whatever is loosed or bound on earth is loosed or bound in heaven. Not because there were two or three witnesses. But because JESUS IS IN THE MIDST of those gathered in His name, even if it is as small a number as two or three.

He clearly states the REASON why the binding and loosing is valid - "Because wherever two or three are gathered in my name there am I in the midst."

Thus, vs 20 is the stated REASON why vs 18 and vs 19 are valid and true. Thus, verse 20 is a CONDITION, indeed, a sine qua non ('not without which'), a necessary condition, for vss 18-19 to be true.

When A is a REASON (or necessary condition) of B, it does not follow that B is the ONLY occasion where A is valid or applies.

For example, anything passed by the Congress (both Houses) and signed by the President is law. Why? Because they have the authority vested in them by the Constitution, to make law. Similarly, anything ratified by the church is 'law' (ie, valid and recognised by Heaven). Why? Because they have the authority of Christ.

Note: To head off another ridiculous rabbit trail, the above is of course subject to the will of God. Thus, a church cannot 'ratify' that which is contrary to Scripture, just as the Congress and President cannot enact as law that which is unconstitutional (following the Supreme Court which ruled that any 'law' which is unconstitutional is NO LAW and is null and void and is as if it had never existed).

But the fact remains, vs 20 is proffered by the Lord as the REASON why the decision of the church in vs 18-19 is recognised as binding. It is because Jesus is wherever two or more are gathered together in His name.

The fact you seem unable to see what EVERY church, in every age, of every stripe, has been able to see, is beyond my ability to address.

[Esaias]

So now that we have dealt with the side issues, the fact also remains that God commands his people to 'come out of Babylon'.

Failure to 'come out' results in two things:

1. Participating in Babylon's sins. And,
2. Receiving the same punishments from God.

Biblical Christianity is a 'come-outer' religion.

The early church had to come out of Judaism (for the Jews) and paganism (for the gentiles). The same thing is true today (although the influence of Judaism is growing amongst professing Christians, it is still yet slight compared to the influences of paganism).

Of course, most people are not willing to 'go outside the camp'. They either want to 'reform' their compromised 'church', or they are just happy with things as they are. Some even want to further the compromise, hoping to be 'change agents' to 'modernize' the theology and faith of others.

But reform movements never succeed. They always wind up in need of reformation themselves. Witness the Methodist church, as a perfect example. They made some 'reformations', but did not go further. And so people had to 'come out' yet again... resulting in the Holiness revival. And then, they too ossified, and did not go on. So once again, when God moved, His people had to come out.

Here we are today. The pillar is moving, but many will be 'left behind' to die in the wilderness.

The call to come out from false religion, and get back to the unadulterated Word of God and the faith ONCE delivered to the saints, to the faith of the original church, and of the apostles of the Lord, is just as valid today as it was 2,000 years ago.

And meets with much of the same kinds of opposition as it did back then.