Is baptism part of the new birth?

[seekerman]

Originally Posted by votivesoul

I don't understand the question. Please elaborate.

Do you refer to Christ's baptism or something else?

I'm just saying, keep the main thing the main thing.

[Truthseeker]

Are you saying water baptism represents his death?

[votivesoul]

I wouldn't use the word represent.

I would only affirm Romans 6:3,

3. Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?

I'm not going to be able to say it any better than Paul. Water baptism is the means whereby we partake in the cross upon which Jesus died.

If there is a more accurate way to understand what Paul means in Romans 6, I would love to learn it. So far I've exegeted it to the best of my ability.

But if someone else has a different take, please share.

[votivesoul]

Originally Posted by seekerman

I'm just saying, keep the main thing the main thing.

Fair enough. I'm not opposed.

[renee819]

Originally Posted by votivesoul

Not sure if you're asking me, Truthseeker. But I will answer.

My answer is no. The body of sins is destroyed by/at baptism. Until that portfolio, if you will, of all past sins is eradicated, even if one were to receive the Holy Spirit, it still doesn't change the fact that they can be a slave to sin.

We are told that the Spirit is life, true. But Romans 6 teaches we are baptized into Christ's death, not into His resurrection. We can conclude therefore that Romans 6 is not about Spirit baptism, but about water baptism. Paul details Spirit baptism later, in Romans 8.

Secondly, Jesus taught that though some might call Him "Lord, Lord" (only possible through the Holy Spirit a la 1 Corinthians 12:3) and even prophesy, cast out devils, and do other miraculous things, they still may not be doing the will of the Father, and so, are labeled workers of iniquity and are refused Heaven.

So how can someone who is able to call Jesus Lord through the Spirit, be used in Gifts of the Spirit (prophecy, working of miracles, perhaps gift of faith or gifts of healing, too, as implied) still not make Heaven?

Easy. By still being a slave to sin if or because of the body of sins were not destroyed by being baptized into Christ's death, which is part and parcel of the Father's will for all believers everywhere.

In the Tabernacle, I suppose one could (if they dared) offer a sacrifice at the brazen altar, SKIP the Laver of Water, and go right into the Holy Place to worship, but I suspect if someone dared to do so, they might end up as dead as Nadab and Abihu.

And since these things are shadows of the true, I think we would be remiss if we didn't align our soteriology and new birth doctrine with what has come before through typology.

I don't think it can be said any plainer than that.

I don't even understand why it is a question among Pentecostal's.

There is no other way.

REPENT----Jesus forgives you of your sins

BAPTIZED IN JESUS NAME, ---your past sins are washed away.

RECEIVE THE HOLY GHOST-----WITH THE EVIDENCE.

Why would Pentecostal's try to find another way to clime up to heaven????

[Truthseeker]

Originally Posted by votivesoul

I wouldn't use the word represent.

I would only affirm Romans 6:3,



I'm not going to be able to say it any better than Paul. Water baptism is the means whereby we partake in the cross upon which Jesus died.

If there is a more accurate way to understand what Paul means in Romans 6, I would love to learn it. So far I've exegeted it to the best of my ability.

But if someone else has a different take, please share.

How do you know Romans 6:3 is water baptism?



If being filled with the Spirit is the resurrection which can't happen before death how did those in acts 10 get the Spirit before water baptism if water is being baptized into his death literally?

[Michael The Disciple]

Originally Posted by votivesoul

Titus 3:5,



How many agree that renewing of the Holy Spirit is the baptism of the Holy Spirit and that washing of regeneration is water baptism in Jesus name?

I agree totally.

[votivesoul]

I believe Romans 6:3 is water baptism for a several reasons.

One, it's some kind of baptism, which gives it a 50/50 chance of being water baptism.

Two, it is a baptism into death, not life, and the Spirit is life.

Three, Romans 8 is all about Spirit baptism, leading me to think Romans 6 is about water baptism.

Four, it fits the OT typology and message of the Gospel, including Acts 2:38.

More than anything, however, I think Romans 6 is not just talking about a here and now temporal solution to sin, but is also indicating what happens to the saved at check-out time. They shall walk in newness of life in New Jerusalem. So when it talks of resurrection, I don't automatically only think gift of the Holy Spirit, I also think Glorification, much in the same way Christ was glorified and ascended (something that hasn't happened to us, yet).

Regarding Cornelius, the Apostles and Elders in Jerusalem, when hearing the news, said that God had granted them repentance unto life. I take this to mean that God had granted them a sufficient level of repentance in order to be saved, and sealed that repentance with proof, i.e. the Holy Spirit, if for no other reason than to convince the circumcised believers who went with Peter.

I don't take it to mean that should they have rejected Peter's command to be baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus, that all would have been A-OK between them and God.

The body of sins still needed to be destroyed, else there is no rational justification for the command/order. We must assume that either Peter was being led of his flesh and didn't know what else he should have done/said (i.e. he was flying by the seat of his pants), or Peter was giving a command/order from the Holy Spirit by the Lord Jesus.

If the first is true, then what's the point of trusting much that's in the Bible, especially as it relates to Simon Peter?

If the second is so, then we must realize that Christ had a definite, salvific intention in having His Apostle command/order them to be baptized in His name.

We might not understand it all (I don't pretend to do so) but I think we can at least declare this much.

I hope I helped!

[votivesoul]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

I agree totally.

Me, too.

[renee819]

Originally Posted by votivesoul

Titus 3:5,
How many agree that renewing of the Holy Spirit is the baptism of the Holy Spirit and that washing of regeneration is water baptism in Jesus name?

Michael the disciple, wrote.

I agree totally.

Absolutely!