Can God Pray?

[jfrog]

Originally Posted by jfrog

Yea I am making it seem that way but that's only to provoke some of these here to think about what they are saying. So prax I want to ask you, does the person that is god do nothing of himself or does he do things of himself?

Prax, I don't know why I even asked that. I know the answer. You will answer the person that is god does nothing of himself in his human nature and does everything of himself in his divine nature. Of course you also admit natures don't do things people do.

In our previous discussion you explained that the person who is god could both know something and not know something because he had both a human mind and a divine mind and this his knowledge wasn't in the same way at the same time by virtue of being through two different minds.

There's no logical problem with any of these answers in your oneness belief. It does lead to some paradoxes though. Namely that most people's conception of what a person is doesnt work when applied to god.

[votivesoul]

Originally Posted by jfrog

If god didn't pray doesn't that mean Jesus isn't god since Jesus prayed?

From your post God is Jesus?

I do not conflate the man Christ Jesus with God the Father.

I do not attribute any deity to the man Christ Jesus, only to God the Father, which was and is in Christ.

The Father, in His identity, is unique and distinct, though revealed and made known, through His Son, Jesus Christ.

The fullness of God the Father's deity was in Christ.

I do not say Jesus is the Father, nor do I call Jesus either Father or God.

I do not believe God became a human, as in, He transubstantiated His nature from Eternal Divine Spirit to Temporal Human Flesh.

I am familiar with all the Scriptural arguments against my position. I also know the Scriptural arguments in favor of my position. I really don't like to debate, prove, or disprove in relation to what I believe, vis a vis, what others believe. I am open to learning and being corrected if my understanding is faulty. But I'm also open to leaving behind any tradition of man in the face of apparent TRUTH.

Like others, I appreciate the freedom to develop my understanding without judgment or prejudice. As with all other believers, to my own Master I rise or fall. If, in my understanding of who my God is, I fall, He is able to help me stand again, as long as I repent, maintain humility and meekness, and confess my fault.

Therefore, I tend to merely leave the discussion at this:

Matthew 11:27,

All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.

Since the Lord Jesus said no one knows the Son, except His Father, I believe it is within reason to realize many will come to varying Christotological conclusions which will inevitably differ from one another.

Additionally, since the Lord Jesus said no one knows the Father without special revelation by and from the Son, I recognize that without revelation, correct theological knowledge of God will be lacking. I also recognize that no matter the purity of the revelation, it will come to us earthen vessels through a limited, sometimes carnal, and most certainly human, filter, thus making our attempts at explaining and sharing what we believe to be true quite difficult, if not almost impossible, at least for many.

Finally, I do not believe salvation is first and foremost dependent upon one's thorough understanding of the Incarnation. The litmus test for salvation is obeying the Gospel. Notwithstanding, some can stray so far away from what the Bible teaches, that they embrace another Jesus (examples would be teaching that Jesus and Buddha are both Christs, or that the story of Jesus is merely a re-telling of Vishnu/Krishna or Mithras).

[jfrog]

Originally Posted by votivesoul

From your post God is Jesus?

Thanks for the reminder

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by jfrog

Yea I am making it seem that way but that's only to provoke some of these here to think about what they are saying. So prax I want to ask you, does the person that is god do nothing of himself or does he do things of himself?

If you are asking me about the Person that is God who became Human, yes he does nothing of His own authority (which is what that means)

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by jfrog

Prax, I don't know why I even asked that. I know the answer. You will answer the person that is god does nothing of himself in his human nature and does everything of himself in his divine nature. Of course you also admit natures don't do things people do.

In our previous discussion you explained that the person who is god could both know something and not know something because he had both a human mind and a divine mind and this his knowledge wasn't in the same way at the same time by virtue of being through two different minds.

There's no logical problem with any of these answers in your oneness belief. It does lead to some paradoxes though. Namely that most people's conception of what a person is doesnt work when applied to god.

But MOST people's experience with what a Person is and can do is limited to us..who are limited. Of course. God is said to be Transcendent.

[jfrog]

Originally Posted by Praxeas

But MOST people's experience with what a Person is and can do is limited to us..who are limited. Of course. God is said to be Transcendent.

Yea I guess the only thing I don't like about your explanations is that if a person can have multiple natures there is no logical restriction that a single person couldn't have multiple natures of the same type.

Maybe there are people out there with 2 human natures. Maybe me and Prax are the same person. I wouldn't even have to know I was the same person as Prax. And you know what? There's no logical reasons this can't be true!


Maybe every single person in the world is the same person. Maybe one person can have billions of natures and maybe all those natures can be the same type of nature. There's no logical reason this can't be. If this is all possible then this one person who has the natures of all people in the world can both go to heaven and to hell at the same time! There's no logical reason this can't be true!

Is it true? I can't prove it is... but I can't prove it isn't either I hope I get some replies by myself functioning through some of my other natures regarding this. Maybe I can get some comments on how weird the world can be using Prax's philosophical underpinnings which I guess would actually be my philosophical underpinnings and yours as well since we are all the same person. Or at least we might be.... there's no real way to know for sure. What is clear is that in Prax's philosophy this is definetely a possiblity.

Personally I've always had the philosophical view that a nature was ALL and EVERY quality that a person possessed. This meant there was one nature per person. This meant there can't be a person with 2 non overlapping natures. For example: I can have the nature of a human being and of a mammal because a human being is a subset of mammals but I cannot have the nature of a mammal and a reptile at the same time because mammals are warm blooded and reptiles are cold blooded. This is my philosophical views when it comes to discussing persons and natures. I tihnk most people share my philosophical ideas on this subject but maybe I am wrong.

[votivesoul]

jfrog, you are encountering the God Transcendent and God Incarnate view of Christ.

Sometimes called the Theanthropic Principle or more commonly the Hypostatic Union, which comes from a Chalcedonic Christology, developed to refute Nestorianism.

It's very similar, if not exactly equal to, the views expressed by somewhat well known Oneness apologist and blogger Jason Dulle.

Heard of him?

This is a website he runs:

http://www.onenesspentecostal.com/

If you scroll down toward the bottom, he has categories for Theology Proper and Christology, containing various articles as they relate.

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by jfrog

Yea I guess the only thing I don't like about your explanations is that if a person can have multiple natures there is no logical restriction that a single person couldn't have multiple natures of the same type.

Do you mean a human person or just a person in general?

Maybe there are people out there with 2 human natures. Maybe me and Prax are the same person. I wouldn't even have to know I was the same person as Prax. And you know what? There's no logical reasons this can't be true!

Ok...but remember we are discussing what the bible says. I believe it says Jesus was God and Man.

Also remember it's not merely that one person has two natures but that One person IS both a Human AND a Divine being

Maybe every single person in the world is the same person. Maybe one person can have billions of natures and maybe all those natures can be the same type of nature. There's no logical reason this can't be. If this is all possible then this one person who has the natures of all people in the world can both go to heaven and to hell at the same time! There's no logical reason this can't be true!

And Maybe every single person in the world Created everything...MAYBE there are Pink Unicorns on a Planet called Thpppptipto. Yes it's logically possible...Uh. what were we discussing again?

Is it true? I can't prove it is... but I can't prove it isn't either I hope I get some replies by myself functioning through some of my other natures regarding this. Maybe I can get some comments on how weird the world can be using Prax's philosophical underpinnings which I guess would actually be my philosophical underpinnings and yours as well since we are all the same person. Or at least we might be.... there's no real way to know for sure. What is clear is that in Prax's philosophy this is definetely a possiblity

My "Philosophy" isn't that every one on the planet not only has two natures but two distinct ways of existing....

Personally I've always had the philosophical view that a nature was ALL and EVERY quality that a person possessed.

My view is the same. Imagine that. However let me expand on that. Nature are all and every quality that a person possesses that makes that Person whatever kind of Being they are.

So you, possessing EVERY human quality makes you "Human".

This meant there was one nature per person.

At least. Otherwise One did not exist. Nature explains what sort of existence one person or thing has.

This meant there can't be a person with 2 non overlapping natures. For example: I can have the nature of a human being and of a mammal because a human being is a subset of mammals but I cannot have the nature of a mammal and a reptile at the same time because mammals are warm blooded and reptiles are cold blooded. This is my philosophical views when it comes to discussing persons and natures. I tihnk most people share my philosophical ideas on this subject but maybe I am wrong.

Most Christians believe Jesus can and does have two natures. BTW those two natures probably are similiar in many ways.

[seekerman]

Originally Posted by Praxeas

Most Christians believe Jesus can and does have two natures. BTW those two natures probably are similiar in many ways.

The bible doesn't teach that Jesus has two natures, one which died while the other is in heaven looking on. The bible doesn't teach that the person with one nature who isn't God, prayed to another nature who is God. The bible doesn't teach that one nature, who isn't God, was forsaken by His Father, raised after three days and ascended to another nature who is the Father and God of Himself.

The oneness 'natures' view is a switcheroo theology of Jesus. Now He's God, no now He's human....whatever is needed at the time. The bible doesn't teach that.

The apostolic missionary is correct...."God cannot pray! If he could, he would not be God! We all know that God cannot pray to God and still be God!" The issue is that oneness folks cannot simply say if they agree or disagree with the statement. They seemingly must introduce caveats, workarounds, unscriptural verbiage instead of simply saying, I agree....or disagree.

For the record, I agree with the apostolic brother. God cannot pray to God and still be God.

[votivesoul]

Originally Posted by seekerman

The bible doesn't teach that Jesus has two natures, one which died while the other is in heaven looking on. The bible doesn't teach that the person with one nature who isn't God, prayed to another nature who is God. The bible doesn't teach that one nature, who isn't God, was forsaken by His Father, raised after three days and ascended to another nature who is the Father and God of Himself.

The oneness 'natures' view is a switcheroo theology of Jesus. Now He's God, no now He's human....whatever is needed at the time. The bible doesn't teach that.

The apostolic missionary is correct...."God cannot pray! If he could, he would not be God! We all know that God cannot pray to God and still be God!" The issue is that oneness folks cannot simply say if they agree or disagree with the statement. They seemingly must introduce caveats, workarounds, unscriptural verbiage instead of simply saying, I agree....or disagree.

For the record, I agree with the apostolic brother. God cannot pray to God and still be God.

Seekerman, I am "Oneness folks" and I've answered your question twice. No caveats, workarounds, or unscriptural verbiage:

I agree. God cannot pray. God cannot pray to God and still be God.