Can God Pray?

[houston]

Originally Posted by seekerman

I always find that the discussion centers on the analogy instead of scripture. Who does the snake represent, who does the cow represent?.

What does the fox say?

[seekerman]

Originally Posted by jfrog

Then lets talk in general because it all works the same. Do you believe there can be one thing which is or controls two other totally unrelated things?

I'd rather talk specifics. God controls Jesus but is unrelated or Jesus controls God?

Let's talk God and Jesus, the Father and the Son.

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by jfrog

You do bring up one good point. The common use of the term "personal relationship" is a relationship that is between people. With Prax saying Jesus is one person that is God and man, he really can't have the man Jesus having a "personal relationship" with God who is the same person as him.

Prax has changed the meaning of person so much that Jesus and God can no longer have a "personal relationship".

Really? What does "person" mean and how have I changed it?

In fact I use the standard "Theological" meaning most Trinitarians use to argue that in their view, we have One Person who is distinct from Himself as Father and Son psychologically.

In other words in their use of the term we have one person.

In the philosophical use, one person.

In the Ontological use, as it pertains to being or existentially, we have at least two

Think about this for a second. A Person to you is at least one BEING. One person per being or one being per person.

Trinitarians have three persons that are One being.

I have two "beings" that are One Person.

In other words I have two different kinds of beings with two different kinds of minds that are both personalized. The fact that it's the same ego personalizing them doesn't change the fact that there are two.

So I have FUNCTIONALLY two persons. One is God and One is Human. If you break down the term Person by it's dictionary definition I have one Human personal being. Then if you use the other definition philosophically/Theologically (Trinitarian), God is also a Person by a completely different definition of the word, there are two.

I don't have an issue with a Personal Relationship With God when it's in fact a Human being (person) in relationship with the Divine Person. And it's all made a reality due to the very real ontological becoming of God as a man. He has a REAL Human identity.

So just sticking with the one definition of person from the Theological standpoint: We have One person who has a God identity and a Human identity.

And lastly, because I am sure someone here will confuse Identity with Individual or Person...

Identity has as a synonym "Personality" but not "Person". Jesus has a Human personality. Or a humanized Personality just as Jesus has a Human nature personalized by His Person.

So the rejection of there being two persons in the Theological sense does not negate there being a real "personal relationship"..the issue is where does the relationship reside. In the PERSON or in the Human Identity vs the Divine Identity

[seekerman]

Originally Posted by houston

What does the fox say?

I'm having a very hard time not hating (in the sense of biblical hate) you right now. I'll have that song in my head the rest of the day!!

[Luke]

Originally Posted by seekerman

Since Jesus Himself says that His God and Father is the same as His brethren's God and Father, do you just reject that? Do you dismiss the entirety of John 17?

This is a perfect example of folks using their favorite scriptures to prove something in the bible and ignoring those passages which contradict their view. We all do it, it seems.

And, Jesus being an example has nothing to do with Him being God or not.

I agree His being our example has no bearing upon Him being God. At the same time His praying also has no bearing upon Him Being God either.

Is there anywhere in the Bible that Jesus denies being God? Can you show me anywhere in the Bible where Jesus is specificly said to not be God? I can show multiple places where He is called God.

[Praxeas]

What I posted earlier is deep and beyond a lot of people's ability to understand

But in essence we have One Person but two Personal beings. How? There are two beings that are personalized by the same individual.

[seekerman]

Originally Posted by Luke

I agree His being our example has no bearing upon Him being God. At the same time His praying also has no bearing upon Him Being God either.

Is there anywhere in the Bible that Jesus denies being God? Can you show me anywhere in the Bible where Jesus is specificly said to not be God? I can show multiple places where He is called God.

When Jesus Himself, not someone else, but Jesus Himself said that His God and Father was the same as His brethren's God and Father, that is Jesus not claiming to be God.

I can find not a scripture where Jesus Himself claimed to be God. There are plenty where He has a God and Father though.

[seekerman]

Originally Posted by Praxeas

What I posted earlier is deep and beyond a lot of people's ability to understand

But in essence we have One Person but two Personal beings. How? There are two beings that are personalized by the same individual.

Multiple personality disorder.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by seekerman

Yes, God was in Christ and He's in us also. God being in Christ makes Him no more God than it makes us God. You referenced the word "we" which indicates two somethings, in this case Jesus was referencing He and His Father and God. 'We are one' suggests that two somethings, which was Jesus and His Father and God, and they were in a unity. We're in a unity with the God and Father of Jesus,as Jesus and His brethren were. Jesus prayer contains several elements of this unity, being one. But not the same entity.

Ah... but you assume that we are not God. An ancient saying goes, "God became man, so that man might become God." Please note, it says, "God", not "gods". We become living extensions of God Almighty. We have become "Sons of God", as much as Christ (our elder brother was). It is no longer we that live... but Christ who lives within us. Yes, we too can experience "oneness" with God through the indwelling Holy Spirit. We too can be "branches" of the "true vine"... His life and power flowing through us.

The only difference between you and the man Jesus Christ (if you've been born of the Spirit) is that the man Jesus Christ wasn't born of human will... but miraculously through divine will. In addition, the man Jesus Christ was the Logos (the very light, plan, and mind of God) fashioned and formed into a human being. Therefore, the man Jesus Christ was the perfect representation of the Father in full humanity. The oneness shared between the Father and the man Jesus Christ began in the womb of Mary at conception. That being so, the man Jesus Christ was the perfect image and reflection of the Father who dwelt within Him. We are not. We were born of human will. We were born through biological process. Our humanity is representative of our own unique humanity. Our "oneness" with the Father began in time when we were born again.

Thus, the man Jesus Christ (the Son) was a perfect reflection of the Father. In addition... the Father was manifest in Him from conception.

John 10:30
30 I and my Father are one. (KJV)

John 10:38
38 But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him. (KJV)

John 12:45
45 And he that seeth me seeth him that sent me. (KJV)

John 14:7-10
7 If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.
8 Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us.
9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?
10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works. (KJV)

John 14:20
20 At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you. (KJV)

John 15:4
4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me. (KJV)

So yes, we are mere human beings. However, we can also say that we are also God. For we are branches of the true vine. Is not a vine and it's branches a single organism??? We have been crucified with Christ, and yet we live. Not we, not we ourselves, but it is Christ who lives within us. And He is continually conforming us into His image and likeness day by day.

Consider the doctrine of Theosis to answer the question as to our divinity with relation to Christ's.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Praxeas

Aquila just became a Unitarian. Congratulations

Close, but not quite. I do believe in an ontological oneness of Spirit that elevates the man Jesus Christ into being God... and reveals that God became man in that He was manifest in the flesh of the man Jesus Christ.