Submission to a pastor

[Abiding Now]

Originally Posted by votivesoul

I am all for plurality of elders. It is the Biblical model, and I agree wholeheartedly with it.

But not everyone has the model working in their local assembly, right now, so my comments were directed at those who don't have that model.

Secondly, I have had an abusive pastor, for ten years. If you want all the gory details, PM me.

But I will say this:

GOD, yes GOD, removed him. Here's the short version...

After a leadership meeting in which he attacked, derided, and threatened us, he had me stay after for an extra unwarranted keel hulling regarding me taking early time off from ministry as my wife went into her 8th month of pregnancy with our first child (just to give you an idea).

I didn't fight back, I didn't speak up, I didn't defend myself against the injustice. I bowed my head and left.

Later that day, in prayer, trying not to get offended, or let the hurt of the situation go too deeply, God said "He's a bully". That settled it for me, and I didn't worry about it at all. Peace like a river.

Two weeks later, a prophet came to our church, met with the leadership team, said "God told me there is sin in the camp".

My former pastor and the prophet talked privately afterward. Two weeks later, the pastor resigned, a month later, he was gone.

Again, that's the condensed version.

But here is what I gained out of the experience:

1.) If I can submit to him in all things (as I did) then I can submit to anyone, up to and including God Himself, if He should ever require a hard level of sacrifice otherwise against my human will.

2.) Just as David's heart melted for coming against a demon-afflicted Saul, so, too did I realize that God allows certain people into your life to teach hard lessons. These are to be embraced as gifts from God.

3.) Adversity and trials are the main catalyst for spiritual growth. Without them, we wilt and fade away.

4.) The cross comes in many shapes and sizes. Whatever the Lord knows it takes for me to endure until the end, I will receive, including a pastor who lost his way and did as much damage, if not more, than any good he accomplished.

5.) I now appreciate those ministers more who take a much more gentle approach to leadership and shepherding. I also have more compassion on those who've gone through the school of hard-knocks.

6.) That if a pastor has lost it and becomes an Ezekiel 34 type of pastor, the worst thing that one could possibly do is bail, and leave the rest of the brethren to that man's tyranny.

I am blessed by the Lord for having stayed, having submitted, having given honor when sometimes, especially toward the end, when no honor was due. I am telling you, reverencing some not for their person and demeanor, but for the calling and anointing God has placed on them (even if they end up back-slidden and corrupted, throwing spears to kill) is the single most important lost teaching in the church today.

You must understand. Jesus had nothing to do with the abuse I and we suffered. It wasn't His fault. I was ordained by God to be in the local assembly I was and still am, in.

Not knowing that, or not caring enough to stay with that in mind, would have been a personal disaster, no matter how just and righteous it would have seemed for me to leave.

Turn the other cheek really means what it means. These teachings of the Lord are so routinely forgotten and ignored, or at least people don't realize what they look like and how they are to be applied in and by the real world.

We are way too comfortable with our own ease.

Absolutely amazing post! How Christian! Thanks for sharing your experience.

[RandyWayne]

Originally Posted by votivesoul

I am all for plurality of elders. It is the Biblical model, and I agree wholeheartedly with it.

But not everyone has the model working in their local assembly, right now, so my comments were directed at those who don't have that model.

Secondly, I have had an abusive pastor, for ten years. If you want all the gory details, PM me.

But I will say this:

GOD, yes GOD, removed him. Here's the short version...

After a leadership meeting in which he attacked, derided, and threatened us, he had me stay after for an extra unwarranted keel hulling regarding me taking early time off from ministry as my wife went into her 8th month of pregnancy with our first child (just to give you an idea).

I didn't fight back, I didn't speak up, I didn't defend myself against the injustice. I bowed my head and left.

Later that day, in prayer, trying not to get offended, or let the hurt of the situation go too deeply, God said "He's a bully". That settled it for me, and I didn't worry about it at all. Peace like a river.

Two weeks later, a prophet came to our church, met with the leadership team, said "God told me there is sin in the camp".

My former pastor and the prophet talked privately afterward. Two weeks later, the pastor resigned, a month later, he was gone.

Again, that's the condensed version.

But here is what I gained out of the experience:

1.) If I can submit to him in all things (as I did) then I can submit to anyone, up to and including God Himself, if He should ever require a hard level of sacrifice otherwise against my human will.

2.) Just as David's heart melted for coming against a demon-afflicted Saul, so, too did I realize that God allows certain people into your life to teach hard lessons. These are to be embraced as gifts from God.

3.) Adversity and trials are the main catalyst for spiritual growth. Without them, we wilt and fade away.

4.) The cross comes in many shapes and sizes. Whatever the Lord knows it takes for me to endure until the end, I will receive, including a pastor who lost his way and did as much damage, if not more, than any good he accomplished.

5.) I now appreciate those ministers more who take a much more gentle approach to leadership and shepherding. I also have more compassion on those who've gone through the school of hard-knocks.

6.) That if a pastor has lost it and becomes an Ezekiel 34 type of pastor, the worst thing that one could possibly do is bail, and leave the rest of the brethren to that man's tyranny.

I am blessed by the Lord for having stayed, having submitted, having given honor when sometimes, especially toward the end, when no honor was due. I am telling you, reverencing some not for their person and demeanor, but for the calling and anointing God has placed on them (even if they end up back-slidden and corrupted, throwing spears to kill) is the single most important lost teaching in the church today.

You must understand. Jesus had nothing to do with the abuse I and we suffered. It wasn't His fault. I was ordained by God to be in the local assembly I was and still am, in.

Not knowing that, or not caring enough to stay with that in mind, would have been a personal disaster, no matter how just and righteous it would have seemed for me to leave.

Turn the other cheek really means what it means. These teachings of the Lord are so routinely forgotten and ignored, or at least people don't realize what they look like and how they are to be applied in and by the real world.

We are way too comfortable with our own ease.

After this keel hauling did you capitulate and NOT take time away from the church to be with your wife? Or did you stay true to her and actually step back from church business for a while?
If you DID capitulate, do you feel you were ultimately blessed for "not touching God's anointed" by not spending time with your wife when she needed it?

Do you feel that any current pastor is "God's anointed" in the same was that Saul was and thus should be 100% 'submitted' to until such a time that God Himself deals with him?

Do you feel David was wrong be fleeing Saul even though Saul was still "God's anointed"? Should David had stayed and let Saul do what he would have to David, trusting that God would have protected him and ultimately blessed him for staying faithful and "submitting" to King Saul?

[Originalist]

Originally Posted by Abiding Now

See...............

Why can't you answer a simple question. in what context were you referring to submission? In a nutshell, how does one "submit" to a pastor?

[Abiding Now]

Originally Posted by Originalist

Why can't you answer a simple question. in what context were you referring to submission? In a nutshell, how does one "submit" to a pastor?

Absolutely.

[votivesoul]

Originally Posted by RandyWayne

After this keel hauling did you capitulate and NOT take time away from the church to be with your wife? Or did you stay true to her and actually step back from church business for a while?
If you DID capitulate, do you feel you were ultimately blessed for "not touching God's anointed" by not spending time with your wife when she needed it?

Do you feel that any current pastor is "God's anointed" in the same was that Saul was and thus should be 100% 'submitted' to until such a time that God Himself deals with him?

Do you feel David was wrong be fleeing Saul even though Saul was still "God's anointed"? Should David had stayed and let Saul do what he would have to David, trusting that God would have protected him and ultimately blessed him for staying faithful and "submitting" to King Saul?

I had already stepped down, and did not step back up, until sometime after my daughter was born, and he was gone (And by the way, I wasn't asked or told to step back up, either, so there wasn't a conflict. He just wanted to vent his spleen at me for my decision).

Who is and who isn't God's anointed is God's business. Everyone filled with the Holy Spirit is anointed, generally speaking. However, there are people who are called and chosen specifically by God for some mission in the Kingdom. If they are so called and chosen, it's no different than Saul or David. God picked them. To argue that is to have a beef with God.

I believe submission within the realm of authority granted by God is expected and ought to be given. Directions to sin, do something unethical, break a vow, damage family, or something else otherwise proven to be un-Biblical requires no submission.

I do not judge David's actions as righteous or not. They happened. I don't blame David one bit. But remember, Jonathan had a spear thrown at him, too, and he stayed, and it cost him his life.

Do we judge Jonathan for staying obedient to his father, even when he knew Saul was lost and had the kingdom taken from him by God?

[Originalist]

Originally Posted by Abiding Now

Absolutely.

So brother Goss was in the wrong then for leaving the AoG, and Martin Luther was wrong to leave the Catholics. Right?

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by votivesoul

Who is and who isn't God's anointed is God's business. Everyone filled with the Holy Spirit is anointed, generally speaking. However, there are people who are called and chosen specifically by God for some mission in the Kingdom. If they are so called and chosen, it's no different than Saul or David. God picked them. To argue that is to have a beef with God.

The church is not Old Covenant Israel with their 'king like all the other nations'. David respected God's choice of Saul, and thus did not kill him when he had the chance. But David did not 'submit' to Saul in the same sense a lot of people claim one must submit to their pastor.

Furthermore, Jesus specifically forbad elders in the church from acting like kings. Therefore, an elder in the church who is acting like a king and comparing himself to king Saul (of all people!!) is in direct disobedience to the Lord.

Finally, the issue of who is tasked with leadership in the church, and what that entails, most certainly involves the church as a whole. To suggest 'that's between God and the preacher' is just plain ridiculous.

Also, consider king Herod - he was 'God's anointed' over Judea at the time (Romans 13?) yet he was rebuked by John and reproached by Jesus. Why? Because he was an immoral sinner, not a godly ruler.

David, undoubtedly God's 'anointed', was rebuked by Nathan.

Preachers are not above rebuke unless they are above reproach. It is not 'touching God's anointed' to question a church elder about some declaration they make or in regards to their actions if those declarations and actions appear contrary to Scripture.

I do find it revealing however that many feel that questioning the pastor is on the same level as if David had KILLED SAUL when he had the chance. Lot's of subsurface stuff going on there, I'm sure...

[Rudy]

Originally Posted by Esaias

The church is not Old Covenant Israel with their 'king like all the other nations'. David respected God's choice of Saul, and thus did not kill him when he had the chance. But David did not 'submit' to Saul in the same sense a lot of people claim one must submit to their pastor.

Furthermore, Jesus specifically forbad elders in the church from acting like kings. Therefore, an elder in the church who is acting like a king and comparing himself to king Saul (of all people!!) is in direct disobedience to the Lord.

Finally, the issue of who is tasked with leadership in the church, and what that entails, most certainly involves the church as a whole. To suggest 'that's between God and the preacher' is just plain ridiculous.

Also, consider king Herod - he was 'God's anointed' over Judea at the time (Romans 13?) yet he was rebuked by John and reproached by Jesus. Why? Because he was an immoral sinner, not a godly ruler.

David, undoubtedly God's 'anointed', was rebuked by Nathan.

Preachers are not above rebuke unless they are above reproach. It is not 'touching God's anointed' to question a church elder about some declaration they make or in regards to their actions if those declarations and actions appear contrary to Scripture.

I do find it revealing however that many feel that questioning the pastor is on the same level as if David had KILLED SAUL when he had the chance. Lot's of subsurface stuff going on there, I'm sure...

Post of the day!