Anybody Read This ?

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by n david

I first read this quote a few weeks, perhaps a month, ago in a different thread and was going to respond but became busy and forgot about it. I looked this quote up and found it's in the Roman Catholic Church Catechism - CCC 460.

I remember reading that the quote is attributed to Athanasius, but is actually quite older.

Now...thus far I have no issue with what has been written. I do like your reference to the Vine and Branches; however, the quote and CCC 460 take a turn I don't agree with.

I can understand.

I cannot agree with this. There are two places I read in the Bible where someone tried to be like God and both ended in misery and separation from God. Satan wanted to be as God and was cast down; Eve ate the fruit after the serpent told her the reason God didn't want her to eat the fruit was because she would be like God. Adam and Eve were sent out from the Garden after eating the fruit.

I'd like to give my perspective. Satan (Lucifer) was created as an angel. To seek to be like God would be blasphemous. However, Adam (man) was made in God’s image (like God). Adam was also given dominion and authority over all creation (being in the image of God). Adam’s “sin” wasn’t the desire to be like God. If you really think about it, he already was. God’s desire was that Adam not partake of the Tree of Knowledge. When Satan said, “…ye shall be as gods…”, he implied a falsehood… that Adam wasn’t like God. Satan essentially implied that Adam didn’t have something he indeed did…”godlikeness”, “perfection”, “holy innocence”, a “one on one” relationship with the Creator Himself. And Adam fell for it. When Adam rebelled and partook of the fruit… he became very “unlike God”. This was sin. And this brought death and every sickness and horror we know today upon mankind. In a very real sense, Christ’s atonement and propitiatory work on the cross is designed to restore this relationship between man and the Creator. Once more we are restored to “one on one” relationship. Once more we are viewed by God as “sinless” and “holy” because we take on His righteousness. Once more… we are filled with His life giving Spirit, a restored connection that brings eternal life. Now are we the “sons of God”. Now, we are made in the “restored image of God”. And it is the Christian calling to be conformed into the very image and likeness of Jesus, who is God incarnate. Our calling is… incarnational living. Christ living in us, through us, and we in Him and through Him. Oneness.

We do not become gods -- with a big G or little g. God did not become man so we could become some other god. God became man so He could redeem us from the sin caused when the first man tried becoming like God!

I agree. And that’s a common misconception of what I’m talking about. We become God. Not God’s. We become… living extensions of Him…branches of the Vine. He in us and we in Him. We partake in His nature through the abiding Holy Spirit indwelling our spirits. We are called to be “Christlike”/”Godlike”. To be, “perfect as your Father in Heaven is perfect”. To be “filled” with all the “fullness” of God. To be, “sons of God”. To reflect the Lord Jesus Christ (God in flesh) in our very beings. A place wherein when Satan sees us… He sees Jesus. When others hear our words… they hear the very words of Jesus. A place wherein to receive us is… to receive Him. This spiritual state of being is far more holy than the highest of “standards”. It is… absolute spiritual union with Him.

Yes, He is the Vine and we are the branches. Notice, He is the Vine and we the branches. It is not He is the Vine and we are Vines also.

A vine and its branches are a single organism. The branches are living extensions of the vine. The very life and vitality of the vine flows through the branches, bringing them life, and produces fruit.

I agree with what you say here, and believe it is different than what CCC 460 or the quote is saying.

It isn’t different. Many have criticized this quote to entrap man in carnal, earthbound, constructs of religion. To be in union with God, to have Him abiding in your being. To really grasp that reality brings one to the point wherein human “control” is impossible. When one experiences and hears from God personally, they can only lovingly submit to another who acknowledges the same reality. I know a pastor who once told me that while I can hear from God and have experiences in God, it was all still subject to his authority and interpretation. I had a different pastor smile and tell me that he could feel the Lord in me and encouraged me to pursue what resides in me. He encouraged me to respect the office of bishop, but to always remain true to the abiding Spirit…even if it means breaking ranks with a man. He explained that he knew this from experience. I could feel the Lord in him too. I found a like reality in that man. And to this day he is dear to my heart.

I agree with what is in bold. I don't believe this is the contemplative prayer I've both read and heard being pushed today -- that being the "divine spark" within ourselves, and trying to focusor illuminate our center. And any which tries to tie mysticism or eastern religion is false.

I don’t believe in the “divine spark”. If anything… those who have the Holy Spirit abiding in them… they have… a “divine inferno”. This is Holy Ghost and Fire burning in our being. It’s no “spark”. Lol I wouldn’t be satisfied with a mere “spark”. You can’t even light a cigarette with a “spark”. lol

While I see some elements similar to, “contemplative prayer”…I tend to call what I practice (when I silence the soul in prayer) “soaking” or “immersion” prayer. And in prayer, I do find my “center”. But I don’t find it necessarily, in “myself”. I find it in Him. Because I am crucified with Christ; and yet I live. Yet I have discovered that it is not I. But rather it is Christ who lives… within me.

As far as eastern religions… it is my opinion that they have learned to open and close the gates of the soul. However, they do not have the ONE who truly desires to enter in and transform them; conforming them into His image. They have another spirit.