Water/Spirit Doctrine Destroyed Beautifully

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by jfrog

Prax, you are typically a level headed individual. So hear me out.

1. We know that Jesus was talking to nicodemus about a 2nd birth.

2. In John 3:8 Jesus speaks of a birth which occurs without water; "born of spirit"

3. If the 2nd birth that jesus was talking to nicodemus about included both a water and spirit portion then it makes little sense to call those born who only have the spirit portion. Yet that's exactly what Jesus called them. Ya see what I'm saying?

He was merely explaining the part of "Born of the water and of the spirit" that Nicodemus did not understand

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by Sean

Except is the word that I was referring to as "optional".(except a man is born of water.....).... optional....(except a man is born of the Spirit).....optional. Optional(Except) means... "this is your option whether or not you want to be born again" to enter into the kingdom........

An example of a common use of the word except...." If you choose to be born again I will let you into the Kingdom of God....that is the "exception" I will make for you"


"Unless" was only a synonym I used to help describe the word,"except".


You may have missed the point I made, that these guys say that being born of water is NOT optional.....everyone from birth is born of water. Then all they need is the Spirit birth. Which is their option to be saved or not.(they dont automatically have it(Spirit from birth).....hope that clarifies.

Since Except and Unless are synonyms, neither one means "optional"

[Sean]

optional - definition

View thesaurus entry for optional
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Using the thesaurus
ADJECTIVE British English pronunciation: optional /ˈɒpʃ(ə)nəl/

something that is optional is available or possible if you want it, but you do not have to have it or do it
The price includes hotel and meals – entertainment is optional.
Add 200 grammes of walnuts (optional).
The history course is optional, but English is compulsory.
an optional extra (=something that is available, usually for more money): Remote central locking comes as an optional extra.
Thesaurus entry for this meaning of optional




I am saying the very statement of Jesus shows the individual has a choice to be born again or not to be born again...that is their OPTION. Jesus does not twist arms or coerce anyone to be born again. (you are not automatically born of water)

Of course the end result if they dont is not being born again.

[jfrog]

Originally Posted by Praxeas

He was merely explaining the part of "Born of the water and of the spirit" that Nicodemus did not understand

Jesus could have been explaining about aliens at the time. It doesn't take away the fact that Jesus mentioned being born again and then mentioned being born of the spirit (without water). If being born of the spirit was simply part of being born again then it makes absolutely no sense to use the word born in decribing those who have the spirit only (without water) because if you are right about what Jesus meant then those born of spirit aren't actually born yet.

[Reader]

I think people should keep in mind that born again is best translated born from above. We have a natural birth, which is what Nicodemus thought Jesus was speaking of & why he brought up going back in a mother's womb (water), and a spiritual birth that come from above (spirit).

Understanding that this section of scripture is not saying water means baptism, does not negate all the scriptures that clearly show water baptism is a command and a normal part of turning to Jesus.

[Pressing-On]

Originally Posted by Praxeas

"Unless" does not mean optional

"Unless" actually EXCLUDES something from being optional

The word is a conditional (we learned about that in math)

Originally Posted by Praxeas

Since Except and Unless are synonyms, neither one means "optional"

Sorry, Sean, but I have to ruh-roh, Prax here. He is right.

[Pressing-On]

Originally Posted by Sean

optional - definition

View thesaurus entry for optional
What are red words?
Using the thesaurus
ADJECTIVE British English pronunciation: optional /ˈɒpʃ(ə)nəl/

something that is optional is available or possible if you want it, but you do not have to have it or do it
The price includes hotel and meals – entertainment is optional.
Add 200 grammes of walnuts (optional).
The history course is optional, but English is compulsory.
an optional extra (=something that is available, usually for more money): Remote central locking comes as an optional extra.
Thesaurus entry for this meaning of optional




I am saying the very statement of Jesus shows the individual has a choice to be born again or not to be born again...that is their OPTION. Jesus does not twist arms or coerce anyone to be born again. (you are not automatically born of water)

Of course the end result if they dont is not being born again.

Jesus is saying that "except/if not under the circumstances", you cannot "see/know" the kingdom of God.

If you are saying, which you are, a person has a choice, that is true. But, technically, the word "except" implies "exclusion".

[jfrog]

Originally Posted by Pressing-On

Sorry, Sean, but I have to ruh-roh, Prax here. He is right.

Sean agrees with prax an prax agrees with Sean. Being born again is optional. You don't have to so it. However if u want to go to heaven... It is a requirement for that

[obriencp]

Originally Posted by Reader

I think people should keep in mind that born again is best translated born from above. We have a natural birth, which is what Nicodemus thought Jesus was speaking of & why he brought up going back in a mother's womb (water), and a spiritual birth that come from above (spirit).

Understanding that this section of scripture is not saying water means baptism, does not negate all the scriptures that clearly show water baptism is a command and a normal part of turning to Jesus.

[Abiding Now]

Originally Posted by jfrog

Sean agrees with prax an prax agrees with Sean. Being born again is optional. You don't have to so it. However if u want to go to heaven... It is a requirement for that

At last!