Quote:
Originally Posted by mfblume
Well, then, we need to insist and remind folks that hypotheticals are silly things from which to stem a doctrine.
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The initial evidence doctrine is a hypothetical. Until Topeka no one in history connected tongues as being the one and only universal sign/evidence of the baptism of the Spirit (ie regeneration/salvation). The whole Pentecostal movement is built on a very questionable interpretation of scripture and at odds with all Christianity that cones before it. Yet claims to have rediscovered the truth.
If oneness Pentecostals rediscovered truth then we can't help but wonder about Jehovah's Witnesses and Mormons. Both groups are older (though not much) than the oneness pentecostal movement and both have had greater success in terms of both evangelism, zeal to get out their "truth" based on their unique interpretation of scripture, and we see much greater unity amongst them that the multi fragmented always fighting and dividing OP church.
I do believe that both JWs and Mormonism are cults. And I don't think that age alone really proves anything as far as truth....BUT when your movements beginnings are newer than the JWs and Mormons that should be a red flag. When your view of Bible salvation flies in the face of 20 centuries of church history, including every other non OP denomination that exists concurrently with your group, that should be a red flag.
When your soteriology excludes 99% of all CHRISTIAN people if all time, and teaches that no Christian leader, missionary, scholar, or martyr in the last 20 centuries went to heaven (who can you name in Church history who has "obeyed
Acts 2:38" according to your movements private interpretation?), that should be a red flag. When your group has historically been more concerned with whether or not a woman trims her hair, wears red, has an earring, or if a man has a been or LITERALLY hundreds if not thousands more of man made standards than with preaching the gospel (ie the gospel is secondary to their tradition and private interpretation not just if soteriology but also of sanctification) that should be a red flag.
To me everything about the oneness movement screams watch out. And a lot I didn't see while I was in. I remember saying to my wife a few months after we left, it was like we lived 10 years in a bubble and never even realized it.
But I'm getting off track. The point is there is no greater assumption in all Christendom than the assumption that every single person in the first century spoke in tongues when they received the Holy Ghost. If that's not assumption tell me what is.
It begins with your watershed text,
Acts 2:38. Where is there any indication whatsoever that the 3,000 of v.41 spoke in tongues? It must be ASSUMED. Where is there any indication the 5,000 in
Acts 4:4 spoke in tongues? It must be ASSUMED. What about the Ethiopian Eunuch? Assumption again. The Philippian jailer? You have to ASSUME he spoke in tongues. The entire Corinthian church? You gave to ASSUME (against pretty strong evidence to the contrary in 1 Cor 12:30) that they All, every single one, spoke in tongues.
And you have to Assume that every where else in the world wherever the gospel was preached and received they all spoke in tongues. Despite no Biblical evidence if it. If Gentiles spoke in tongues every single time why didn't Paul and Barnabas just say so at the Jerusalem Council instead Peyer had to testify about Cornelius's house speaking in tongues several years back to end the debate about whether or not Gentiles were accepted by God without circumcision.
Then after making all those assumptions and explaining away multiple texts necessary to arrive at your conclusion you have to explain why no one in post biblical church history was apparently saved (and especially why we see no group or sect teach your interpretation if
Acts 2:38 through the 2,3,4,5 and so on centuries until the 20th). Even groups with some relation to oneness groups were not the same. The Sabellians apparently did not believe tongues were the initial evidence. The Montanists were a oneness group (Tertullian is the most well known Montanist). There is no biblical or historical evidence that anyone ever believed salvation to be what you posit it to be.
That's a big assumption. The foundation and very bedrock of the modern oneness Pentecostal movement is ASSUMPTION.
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