Apostolic But Not Believing Jesus is The Father? - Page 28

Aquila · #**271** 10-31-2014, 12:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jfrog

You asked for proof of concept. I gave proof of concept. Now obviously God can exhibit both of his personalities at the same time unlike a person that has Multiple Personality Disorder. Obviously a person with multiple personality disorder has a problem. That doesn't necessitate that every person with multiple personalities (especially in the case of God) has a problem by having them.

Can you show me where it states in the Bible that God exhibits two personalities at the same time???

I can show you were God resides in a distinct human personality by using the very words of Jesus Himself:

John 10:38 (KJV)
38 But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him.

Aquila · #**272** 10-31-2014, 12:07 PM

What if a man sitting at a bus stop said, "I am in God and God in me." What would he be claiming? Oneness with God. He'd clearly be implying that while he is a man, he is also God.

jfrog · #**273** 10-31-2014, 12:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aquila

jfrog...

If I have two glasses that are half full... one half full of wine... and the other half full of water... and I pour the first glass into the second causing the wine to be in the water and the water in the wine... is the second glass filled with wine or water? Both. If that humanity, the man Jesus Christ, was in the Father and the Father in Him... He is both Himself and the Father.

Depends on how you define wine and how you define water. Since both of those words have varying meanings it really depends on what you mean by them.

Obviously I'm not going to say I'm drinking water when I'm drinking a glass that is mixed half wine and half water. That's just not a substance that can be defined as water in relation to drinking water. No one would ever say that it was either.

Now wine is a bit more tricky. Wine typically must have a certain alcohol content and other qualifications to be officially called wine. So depending on how weak the wine was to begin with you could have mixed water and wine together and actually not have what we would even call wine anymore.

So it could possibly be wine, it could possibly be neither, it definetely isn't water after mixed though...

jfrog · #**274** 10-31-2014, 12:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aquila

What if a man sitting at a bus stop said, "I am in God and God in me." What would he be claiming? Oneness with God. He'd clearly be implying that while he is a man, he is also God.

Nope. He's claiming what he says he is claiming. God is all around him and inside him. That's all. Nothing more and nothing less. Saying God is all around him and inside him doesn't make him God nor is it trying to claim he is God.

Keep in mind Jesus also prayed:

John 17:21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

If you are right about oneness with God making Jesus God then does this mean Jesus prayed that we would be God just like he is?

jfrog · #**275** 10-31-2014, 12:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aquila

Can you show me where it states in the Bible that God exhibits two personalities at the same time???

I can show you were God resides in a distinct human personality by using the very words of Jesus Himself:

John 10:38 (KJV)
38 But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him.

I can if you believe Jesus is the same person as God.

Michael The Disciple · #**276** 10-31-2014, 02:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aquila

Please define "mode of being" and describe where the concept is explained in the Bible.

Please read that Scripture... slowly.

1 Tim. 2:5
For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, THE MAN Christ Jesus.

How did this "man", Christ Jesus, describe His own oneness with the Father?

John 10:38
38 But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him. (KJV)

Note, there are plenty of ways in the ancient language wherein Jesus could have said, "I am the Father and the Father is me." However, this is NOT what Jesus says. Jesus says, "the Father is IN me, and I IN him". This doesn't speak of sameness... it draws clear distinction through personal pronouns and uses terms that clearly denote mutual indwelling.

He said "Before Abraham was I AM". He was and is I AM. That means he was and is the Elohim of Abraham, Issac, and Jacob. He was there when Abe was there. He was there when Issac was there. He was there when Jacob was there. He was there when Moses was there......

In his humanity this same Father dwells within him as the Spirit dwells in us. That does not make us the Father.

When Jesus was on Earth Jesus was STILL IN HEAVEN.

13And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven. John 3:13

See what I mean? It was him who came. It was him who stayed!

In one mode of being he was/is the Eternal Father. In another mode of being he is the Son of man.

Michael The Disciple · #**277** 10-31-2014, 02:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jfrog

If it walks and quacks like a duck then it's a duck. Aquila you are espousing a view that by itself doesn't say Jesus is God. Everything you say of Jesus testifies that you believe he is just a man, albeit a "special" man but just a man nonetheless.

Sure you can tack on the end of such statements that Jesus is God, but what you are really saying at that point is that being God doesn't require Jesus to actually be God himself. Your explanation leads to more contradictions than it answers IMO.

Well said.

votivesoul · #**278** 10-31-2014, 02:27 PM

The water and wine analogy doesn't work, and here's why:

Wine is anywhere between 75% to 90% water, depending on the type. According to its fundamental nature, wine is almost exclusively H2O to begin with.

If we are going to compare water to say, Eternal Divine Spirit, and the wine to say, Temporal Human Flesh, then it would have to line up like this:

Water = Eternal Divine Spirit

Wine = Temporal Human Flesh

Then, adding/blending them together looks like this:

Water + Wine = a mixture of water and wine

Eternal Divine Spirit + Temporal Human Flesh = The Lord Jesus Christ???

But note: since wine is mostly water, and is a product of water (from grapes that are mostly water), there isn't sufficient differentiation between the two, at the ontological level, to make an accurate contrast between them, which means there isn't a sufficient differentiation between Eternal Divine Spirit and Temporal Human Flesh, according to nature.

If we are going to compare the perichloresis of Eternal Divine Spirit (i.e. God the Father) and Temporal Human Flesh (i.e. the man Christ Jesus), we should compare the two aspects to two things with completely different chemical make-ups, which are ontologically speaking, of two different natures.

Like say, a solid and a liquid, or etc.

You could offer dirt and water, for example. Ontologically different in nature. Easy to blend and mix together. Eventually impossible to separate completely once fully mixed. When combined, they create something new that is neither dirt nor water exclusively and respectively, namely: mud.

(By the way: I am not calling Jesus mud!)

Michael The Disciple · #**279** 10-31-2014, 02:30 PM

IMO Jesus is not a mixture of God nature and man nature as the water wine theory would suppose.

As God Jesus is YHWH. The only God period. As a man he IS a man. He is not a godman. He is God and he is man simultaneously.

votivesoul · #**280** 10-31-2014, 02:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

13. And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven. John 3:13

This passage has always puzzled me, if meant literally.

The term "Son of Man" is a self-referencing term the Lord used frequently, and essentially means "this human being", since "son of man" is but an idiom for the same.

So, if the Lord meant us to understand this verse literally, then it would appear that there are two versions of the man Christ Jesus:

One on earth, a human being, fully present, speaking this verse to Nicodemus, and another in heaven, likewise a human being, fully present there, but not speaking this verse to Nicodemus.

Anyone care to help?