born of water

[Originalist]

Originally Posted by mfblume

You believe God violated the norm in acts 10 too?

If the preacher does not preach nor baptize the true way then Romans 10 says the recipient never believed correctly.

Oneness 1 steppers who are baptized in Jesus' name and have the Holy Ghost are lost then because the message still was not presented correctly to them.

[Originalist]

Originally Posted by mfblume

Wow you assume a lot. First God violates his own word and order, and now folks who claim otherwise will be angry certain ones are saved. Wow.

That was not aimed at you.

[Sean]

Originally Posted by obriencp

Sean never did give a clear answer on this.


How clear of an answer did I need to give to make you happy...LOL

I insist on folks getting re-baptized when they are not sure what was said. That is not a chance that a person can take. The Catholic Church baptized me as a baby, do you think it was all I needed? If not, why not? Does it matter what words they used? Did it matter what method they used? If it matters, then MEN MUST be involved in my salvation, regarding being baptized, or I would have NEVER been re-baptized.



Amen! The implications are this... if someone is truly repentant and being water baptized all of the sudden their salvation hinges on the baptizer. If the baptized is seeking His will and the Lord sees fit to fill them with the Holy Ghost, but a minister water baptized them wrong, they're lost? I don't think so. Salvation is between God and the individual. God will judge the "minister" based on their understanding, but to say that the actions of a third party determines someone else' salvation is ludicrous.


So, with that reasoning, it doesnt matter if a Catholic Priest baptizes us?
All that matters is that we call out to Jesus?
Are baptists that use the titles, good to go also?




Bingo.

Thats gambling...LOL

[obriencp]

If you know better, then yes, I'd say get re-baptized for your conscience sake... and many do. What matters is the heart and intent of the one getting baptized.

Men are "involved" yes, but the issue is whether or not our salvation hinges on what a 3rd party says. Does our salvation depend on them or our hearts and God? If someone in an impoverished country is water baptized by a Baptist Minister because they happened to be the only missionary to reach them, are they still lost in their sins?

You keep dodging a direct answer.

Q: If someone has truly repented, has been filled with the Holy Ghost, but in your opinion was water baptized improperly, are they saved? Or are they lost?

(no need for jokes or any LOLs on this)

[Sean]

Originally Posted by obriencp

If you know better, then yes, I'd say get re-baptized for your conscience sake... and many do. What matters is the heart and intent of the one getting baptized.

Men are "involved" yes, but the issue is whether or not our salvation hinges on what a 3rd party says. Does our salvation depend on them or our hearts and God? If someone in an impoverished country is water baptized by a Baptist Minister because they happened to be the only missionary to reach them, are they still lost in their sins?

You keep dodging a direct answer.

Q: If someone has truly repented, has been filled with the Holy Ghost, but in your opinion was water baptized improperly, are they saved? Or are they lost?

If they are NOT baptized in the name of Jesus, by having the name of Jesus spoken over them, EVERY SIN THEY WILL COMMIT IS GOING TO BE HELD AGAINST THEM after they are baptized wrong.
This is the fact of the matter!!!
It is not the water itself that washes away sins, but the name of the redeemer that is spoken while in the water that makes water baptism effective for remission of sins.



(no need for jokes or any LOLs on this)

I am not joking either on this note. If YOU are not baptized in Jesus' name, every sin you commit is still subject to the judgement and your sins are NOT remitted either.



What the Lord does with ANYONE that dies without remission of sins is not my beef, but I would not want to be in their shoes!!!


However, those that insist that the name of Jesus need not be spoken during baptism are the "gamblers at Golgotha"....

[Originalist]

Originally Posted by Sean

I am not joking either on this note. If YOU are not baptized in Jesus' name, every sin you commit is still subject to the judgement and your sins are NOT remitted either.



What the Lord does with ANYONE that dies without remission of sins is not my beef, but I would not want to be in their shoes!!!

You also said........

If they are NOT baptized in the name of Jesus, by having the name of Jesus spoken over them, EVERY SIN THEY WILL COMMIT IS GOING TO BE HELD AGAINST THEM after they are baptized wrong.
This is the fact of the matter!!!
It is not the water itself that washes away sins, but the name that is spoken while in the water that makes water baptism effective for remission of sins.

And this goes right along with your bizarre belief that those who are baptized wrong yet receive the Holy Ghost are nothing but "sinners with the Holy Ghost".

You are literally saying that we are forgiven by the spoken name of Jesus instead of by Jesus himself! That is one of the most absurd things I've ever heard in my life.

Fortunately, there is a greater witness than you as to whether or not God has forgiven someone for Christ's sake, and that is the witness of God himself.

Sean vs. God.....

Acts 5:32...We are witnesses of these things, and so is the Holy Spirit, whom God has given to those who obey him.”

Ephesians 1:13-14 13 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit,

14 who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.

God: "I count those who received less than perfect immersions, but were still done based on their faith and repentance, to have obeyed me. I testify to this by giving them the gift of the Holy Ghost. By giving them my Spirit I'm making them my temple. I'm signifying that they have been included in Christ and have believed the gospel of their salvation. By giving them my Spirit I'm marking them with a seal that declares that they are my possession. That seal is my personal guarantee that they are my heir."

Sean: "God only gave them the Holy Ghost to help them see their need for re-baptism. They are only a sinner with the Holy Ghost"

I could go one and on. There is so much scripture that absolutely buries Sean's faulty soteriology. None of what he believes was taught by the early Apostolics, including Andrew Urshan. I can't help but wonder how many Trinitarians we've hindered from seeing more truth because people like Sean gained ascendency within our movement.

I'm sure Sean is a fine man and and sincere brother in the Lord. But he'd have us to believe that God raised up a man like David Wilkerson completely in vain, and that all he did and won to the Lord was for naught.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Originalist

Oneness 1 steppers who are baptized in Jesus' name and have the Holy Ghost are lost then because the message still was not presented correctly to them.

Don't assume the worst-case scenario just to contrast your point, brother. If one requires baptism in Jesus' name, then whether they think it is because of remission or to cause remission, they still did it. We're talking about people who were never baptized correctly.

[shazeep]

a good deed covers many sins, it is written.

[Sean]

Originally Posted by Originalist

You also said........



And this goes right along with your bizarre belief that those who are baptized wrong yet receive the Holy Ghost are nothing but "sinners with the Holy Ghost".

Bizarre?

You are literally saying that we are forgiven by the spoken name of Jesus instead of by Jesus himself! That is one of the most absurd things I've ever heard in my life.

Absurd?

Fortunately, there is a greater witness than you as to whether or not God has forgiven someone for Christ's sake, and that is the witness of God himself.

Sean vs. God.....

Howbout Originalist VS Jesus and the apostles teachings?



God: "I count those who received less than perfect immersions, but were still done based on their faith and repentance, to have obeyed me. I testify to this by giving them the gift of the Holy Ghost. By giving them my Spirit I'm making them my temple. I'm signifying that they have been included in Christ and have believed the gospel of their salvation. By giving them my Spirit I'm marking them with a seal that declares that they are my possession. That seal is my personal guarantee that they are my heir."


So if the Pope or any other Catholic gets the Holy Ghost, yet never changes his/their beliefs, is he/they your brother or sister in Christ(even without water baptism in Jesus name)?
You do realize the Charismatic movement is real dont you?


Sean: "God only gave them the Holy Ghost to help them see their need for re-baptism. They are only a sinner with the Holy Ghost"


Exactly, otherwise baptism is an unnecessary ritual, as symbolic as animal sacrifices. That is what you think of water baptism bro.


I could go one and on. There is so much scripture that absolutely buries Sean's faulty soteriology. None of what he believes was taught by the early Apostolics, including Andrew Urshan. I can't help but wonder how many Trinitarians we've hindered from seeing more truth because people like Sean gained ascendency within our movement.

Nope, I am just discussing this with a wishy washy/ compromising ASSEMBLICOSTAL that is divulging himself in trying to minimize the essentiality of water baptism in Pentecost.
My beliefs are the fact....Baptism in the name of Jesus is FOR the remission of sins and the water is only effective in the process when the name of Jesus is spoken verbally. (BTW...what I just said about every sin hanging over the folks that are NOT baptized properly came from Marvin Hicks, unopposed by his brethren in the 70s'...I have the tapes, you are not telling the truth about Urshan)

I'm sure Sean is a fine man and and sincere brother in the Lord. But he'd have us to believe that God raised up a man like David Wilkerson completely in vain, and that all he did and won to the Lord was for naught.

Thanks, but God uses folks in various ways to further His agenda, but that does not make them righteous when He uses them....

21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.


They must obey the truth to be considered "righteous".

[Originalist]

when one continually creates straw men to debate rather than answering the points that have actually been presented, it is a sign that they know they are losing an argument. And Sean, you are the master of the straw man argument.

Straw man no. 1......

So if the Pope or any other Catholic gets the Holy Ghost, yet never changes his/their beliefs, is he/they your brother or sister in Christ(even without water baptism in Jesus name)?
You do realize the Charismatic movement is real dont you?

Please note how you ignored what I clearly stated.....

I count those who received less than perfect immersions, but were still done based on their faith and repentance, to have obeyed me.

The so called "Charismatic Movement" in the Catholic Church is not a move of the Holy Spirit. They do not base their relationship with God on faith and repentance. They are a works based salvation cult. Furthermore, they do not immerse. They are using these manifestations of "tongues" and other "gifts" as proof texts that God endorses the "mother church". To compare what is happening there to what might happen in an Assembly of God church demonstrates that you are either ignorant or insincere. At an AoG church people seeking the Holy Ghost have responded to the preaching of the cross and the Lordship of Christ. They are turning from dead works to serve the Living God.


Straw man no. 2......

Sean: "God only gave them the Holy Ghost to help them see their need for re-baptism. They are only a sinner with the Holy Ghost"


Exactly, otherwise baptism is an unnecessary ritual, as symbolic as animal sacrifices. That is what you think of water baptism bro.

Why lie to yourself, much less those on AFF? You know that I view baptism as being linked to repentance and is done "in order that your sins might be forgiven". My contention is that it is 99% a matter between God and the one being baptized and can still be effective even if the baptizer makes an error. You make it 99% between the one being baptized and the one baptizing thus cutting God out of the picture. You further separate the name of Jesus from Jesus himself and base all forgiveness based on a priest's invocation instead of on the sinner's faith and repentance. He further degrades the regenerating power of the Holy Ghost (which brings with him the new birth) as nothing more than an illuminating experience meant to guide only. Pure heresy. He never actually commented on the verses I quoted.


Straw man no. 3.....

Nope, I am just discussing this with a wishy washy/ compromising ASSEMBLICOSTAL that is divulging himself in trying to minimize the essentiality of water baptism in Pentecost.
My beliefs are the fact....Baptism in the name of Jesus is FOR the remission of sins and the water is only effective in the process when the name of Jesus is spoken verbally. (BTW...what I just said about every sin hanging over the folks that are NOT baptized properly came from Marvin Hicks, unopposed by his brethren in the 70s'...I have the tapes, you are not telling the truth about Urshan)

Sean, once again, is either willfully lying or is ignorant as to what the AoG teaches. He knows full well I could never hold license with the AoG believing what I do. He also continues to lie about my beliefs as well concerning baptism. He knows I affirm it is indeed for(in order that) the remission of sins. He also claims that baptism is only effective when the name of Jesus is invoked by the baptizer, in spite of the fact that those receiving baptism invoked the name, and in spite of the fact that God validated the imperfect baptisms of many by bestowing the like precious gift on them.

As for Urshan, I have read his quotes right here on AFF. He was right in line with many other early Apostolics, like G.T. Haywood, who considered Spirit filled Trinitarians to be brothers in Christ.

As for David Wilkerson, he was declared and made righteous when the righteous One baptized him with his own Spirit.