New Birth

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by shazeep

The fact that these are excluded for whatever reason makes them no less Scriptural. Are they the whole story? No, but Christ Himself says "9/10ths of the law and prophets," which you somehow interpret as a curse of following the law? So that you may insist upon your tenth, and all others be damned?

I exclude none of them. Why do you say I exclude them? I answered them.

[mfblume]

Just some observations.

Shaz, I am sure you believe what you do with everything in you. So do I. But what got this all started was your accusation that a person who thinks they can say an entire religious movement holds people who are all lost is someone who lacks love and exalts themselves.. And when I tried to explain it had nothing to do with lack or abundance of love, because the bible teaches we have to believe Jesus is Son of God and His death on the cross is our only means of salvation and righteousness, you plugged your ears and sang lalalala. With the bible having said that, if a religion distinctly denies His Sonship and does not believe His very crucifixion, itself, occurred, let alone tjat the issue is salvational, then its adherents cannot be saved. It is part and parcel to believe Jesus is not Son of God and did not die on the cross with being Islamic. It's in the Koran. Since these are the very things that are needful for salvation, among other things, the Bible, therefore, says these religious folks are lost. Not anyone else. Just the Bible.

But all of that is ignored because of some reason you hold that says a person cannot love anyone if they make such a claim. And because you're convinced of that, and you know the bible is not incorrect, then even though you cannot directly deal with passages we propose that say otherwise, you are convinced the bible does not lead a person to believe such a concept, unless the person is deceived and the bible PURPOSELY is written to make people believe lies if they are not right with God.

So, in effect, you imagine the bible to say What you want it to say. And when someone challenges you to support that view with various scriptures, you pass it off and chant the mantra that those who say a group is lost cannot be correct, for they're hateful. You cannot explain the actual meaning of the verse, but you are simply convinced OUR meaning is incorrect. ....Okaaay. You say there are various ways to DENY THE SON, and imply, by that, that Muslims are not denying the Son when they deny He is the Son. Whatever.

That brings another issue to surface. You cannot imagine a person not being hateful simply because they claim an entire group of people are lost, and you simply won't accept the fact the bible is intended to lead people to believe if they deny Christ's Sonship and His crucifixion they are lost.

Scriptures that flatly state these things are claimed by you to be misinterpreted, due to your basic concept that people are simply lost if they claim an entire group is lost. You ignore our responses that point out the irony of that claim, explaining you just claimed an entire group is lost since they claimed an entire different group is lost. Different or not, you claimed an entire group is lost. Self contradictory.

Anyway, the other issue I refer to is the fact you cannot imagine a person being loving who claims an entire group is lost. Not only does that condemn yourself for saying those who make that claim are lost, but it is thinking the worst of a particular situation. Love does not think the worst. It hopes for the best possible variable as a reason for why something is the way it is.

Paul said love...

1 Corinthians 13:7 Beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things.

Hopeth all things can be better understood in the modern version as follows:

1 Corinthians 13:7 ISV She bears up under everything; believes the best in all; there is no limit to her hope, and never will she fall.

It hopes for the best! You imagined the ultimate worst.

All these scriptures are presented, and you simply state we're deceived and the bible is written so we can find our excuse to remain lost and deceived, as if God purposed the Word to be written that way, so only those whom you agree with can get the truth, obviously when they ascertain the same conclusions you do. If they disagree, they're deceived.

No, the bible is not written to purposely deceive. It's just that it is misunderstood by people who are deceived. However, when you cannot respond to a scripture to show what it actually means, in response to claims it refutes your beliefs, you betray the fact that you don't know the word. Your overall feeling is that it simply cannot mean what we claim, even though you don't know what it actually is saying yourself. Now, THAT is evidence of deception if I ever saw it. You don;t know what it is saying, but you have convinced yourself it's not saying what we claim.

Call it what you want, and imagine anything you desire to, but you cannot explain these passages, and consider the cross a stumblingblock in the truest sense that statement means in the New Testament. for some reason it makes you stumble to think salvation and righteousness are freely given without our good deeds earning them. It's HIS good deed that earned us righteousness. You say you believe Christ's cross is needful for you, but you actually deny that when you claim an entire religion that includes the fundamental belief that Jesus is NOT the Son of God and never was crucified cannot be claimed to be filled with lost souls.

And I am not surprised you once again do not respond and explain what the verses I presented actually mean. After all, who can know, since we're all lost and in the dark? For, obviously, it cannot mean what we claim.

[Esaias]

"You don't know how it feeeeeeeels.
No, you don't know how it feeeeeels.
You don't know how it feeeeelsssss......to be meeeeeeeeeeeee!"

lol

[shazeep]

Originally Posted by Esaias

Shazeep, 9/10ths (where's that in the Bible?) is still not a whole.

Yes, you are right; why i am trying to cut lawyers a break is beyond me!
14For the entire law is fulfilled in one statement: Love your neighbor as yourself.
2Therefore, whatever you want others to do for you, do also the same for them--this is the Law and the Prophets.
12Therefore, whatever you want others to do for you, do also the same for them--this is the Law and the Prophets.

Originally Posted by Esaias

We aren't gonna be graded on a curve.

Are you sure? How do you know? We have many, many indications of the degrees in the afterlife, from Tartarus to Crowns. You seem awfully confident for someone seeing through an old-fashioned mirror, E. Just sayin. All go to the same place, as Samuel told Saul.

Originally Posted by Esaias

Nobody is righteous without the Spirit, because Paul says those who are in the flesh CANNOT PLEASE GOD, but "you are not in the flesh IF the Holy Spirit is in you."

So, WHO HAS HOLY SPIRIT, ACCORDING TO THE BIBLE?

That is a good question, that i would say might best be answered by seeing who does not have the Holy Spirit; while also seeing that even Moses did not, sometimes. But we can confidently rule out anyone who lacks humility right away--those declaring the whole of other races "lost," etc.--just wipe them off with a proverbial foot, before you even get started.

Then i would say that one should recognize the overwhelming propensity humans have for justifying themselves, which tells me that i am not really qualified to say if i have the Holy Spirit or not, right this minute, but i can recognize It when i see It--as opposed to when you hear it, as i doubt that the Holy Spirit is any vocal manifestation, sent to make you feel good for a minute in church.

[shazeep]

Originally Posted by good samaritan

"love covers all sin Proverbs 10:12"

I personally believe the love referred to, is when Christ died for all of us. I don't think anyone here will disagree with you on the importance of love, but we must understand who's love. Without God there is no love. Scripture says if we love him we will keep his commandments. This isn't about being legalistic and earning our salvation, but it is about a love for God that causes us to want to know him and obey him.

In those cases where someone truly has never heard the truth; I would never condemn them to hell, but it is God who they will stand before. I would hate to stand before God having rejected God's word for some deeper enlightenment I received from my human comprehension about man's love.

When I stand before God I want to have adhered to God's word and also taught others to as well. Any deeper illumination than the word reveals is not for us, but for God. The scripture is our roadmap to a relationship to God and to salvation. It is not our own love that we need, but the love of God shone into our lives. Therefore it isn't our works that saves us, but the love and mercy of God that brings about obedience and good outward works in our lives.

To this i would mostly say "amen!" But also, Love your neighbor as yourself is not "man's love," or some kind of hippy feel-good love; rather it is what we all mostly fail at. If you want to be rewarded for doing what Scripture says, see that i am not calling you deeper, but shallower, to a child's understanding. My argument is that one has already gotten too deep, if they assume they are qualified to judge others based upon their terminally faulty interpretations.

So i would say that the love being referred to is up there in those verses, above. If you don't have them, you don't have Christ anyway, so why even talk about Him.

14For the entire law is fulfilled in one statement: Love your neighbor as yourself.


and if you are so privileged as to have the other tenth, this love should be more evident in you, not less. But of course a little knowledge is often the worst thing that can happen to a person. Everyone knows how that feels.

[Esaias]

Shaz, why is it that whenever I ask you to show FROM THE BIBLE something you repeatedly DON'T?

I'm seeing a pattern and it looks to me like you have your ideas and they are not based on simple Bible truths. Otherwise you would have answered my question by just showing the verses that ADDRESS THE QUESTION.Z

[shazeep]

Originally Posted by Esaias

Shaz, why is it that whenever I ask you to show FROM THE BIBLE something you repeatedly DON'T?

I'm seeing a pattern and it looks to me like you have your ideas and they are not based on simple Bible truths. Otherwise you would have answered my question by just showing the verses that ADDRESS THE QUESTION.Z

sorry, what is the question? Oh, who has the Holy Spirit, according to some verse you have found? As many as are called or whatever? Look, i am totally ok with that, until it gets you to "we are better than them; because we are saved and they are lost." And honestly i'm ok even then; i'm not here to change your mind. But BAM tell us who has the Holy Spirit, Esaias, if my answer was not Bible enough for you.

[shazeep]

oh, sorry, i just got what you meant. Who gets the Holy Spirit @ salvation? It seems to me that OPs try to reproduce an outpouring of the Holy Spirit that was documented as being given "at that time," and that even slaves were getting then. It doesn't seem to me that they sought the sign that we seek, but it was "as the Spirit gave utterance."

But there is obviously quite a bit of disagreement there, at what "Holy Spirit" even is, which i don't believe is meant to be summoned by an emotional outpouring at a church.

[shazeep]

i see by some other posts around the forum that you posit a "Holy Ghost filled" bretheren, as in you got the Holy Spirit when you "got saved," and, what, It has resided in you ever since? Seriously? I admit to "feeling" some outpouring of the Holy Spirit when i repented, and confessed, and I'm not trying to discount that, as it surely occurs in any contrite heart seeking Christ; but to then assume that i or anyone remains Spirit-filled at all times, or that the Spirit is somehow at my beck and call for demonstrations or whatever doesn't seem Scriptural to me. But it does seem to go hand in hand with the mistaken belief that one might in humility declare anyone else "lost." Or "saved," for that matter. The hubris it is pride personified.

[shazeep]

But hey, "New Birth" is something i'm still going through myself
i can sure attest to that one
but i would check my definition of Spirit-filled believer, perhaps;
what constitutes one to you? How do you define Spirit-filled believer?