Rock Hudson Repented Before His Death

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by deacon blues

Question: have you sinned since you became a Christian? If you have does that make you a perpetual sinner? There's a difference between someone who believes the grace of God is a license to sin and someone who believes the grace of God is God bestowing the perfect love of the Father upon us and giving us the impetus to obey Him because He first loved us and gave Himself as a ransom for us.

I John 2:1
My dear children, I write this to you so that you will not sin. But if anybody does sin, we have an advocate with the Father—Jesus Christ, the Righteous One.

I write this so you will not sin = that's the goal, the ideal, the bar
BUT IF ANYBODY DOES SIN = that's the reality

Christians sin. We aren't suppose to. We aren't expected to. We aren't allowed to. BUT, if we do---all is not lost. We have Jesus who is our attorney defending us before the judgment of God. And because He is the Righteous One, He has the right to defend us, and He does so on the basis of His own righteousness, which God imputes to us when we believe.

Bro, the great problem is that your groups focuses on sinning, not on winning.

It is like going to your Insurance agency and telling them you want car insurance. Yet, that insurance you will purchase because you will be crashing your vehicle from time to time. No, I have car insurance, but haven't made a claim in years. So, therefore my insurance rate is low. My drivers license has no issues. When you get your drivers license you start out with a perfect license. Yet, you have never driven anywhere. But if you don't maintain the perfect record by paying attention you get points against your license. Get enough and you lose your license forever. There is where Jesus is the advocate, not a second person in a god squad pleading a case with a greater deity. But His atonement of the Cross being the advocacy, the blood spread along the lintel and door. Which causes the death angel to passover. Making Jesus our passover. Not a band-aid on a seeping bullet wound.

[shazeep]

Originally Posted by deacon blues

...which God imputes to us when we believe.

or when we rebound, anyway. Nice.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by deacon blues

I don't know a person in the world who believes such nonsense. Every Christian I know expects people to change. Every preacher I know does. Every church I have associated with believes that. I believe it.

Yet, while you say you believe in change, your group denies it deed. You all talk about change how you go from bad to good, but in practice you believe bad will always be bad. They may be good, but the good is only a Jesus mask that they wear. Underneath is the wretched man. The wretched man who is chained and leashed. The Jesus mask isn't supposed to drop, but at times it does, and the mask is just rearranged back. Actually the dose of super humbleness comes through all the time, and allows everyone to know that they are perpetually in sorry condition.

Originally Posted by deacon blues

This is really a debate tactic to try to define your opponent in a way that suits you.

Psychological projection 101.

Second time you bring this up.

Why?

Because it is what you do.

I never accused you of watching porn while reading Bible. It was leading into my discussion on Bob Coy of Calvary Chapel. Who was caught for surfing the internet looking at porn. But, when a rock is thrown into a pack of dogs, the one who let's out a yelp is the one who was hit. Still for the record no one is calling into question your Internet wanderings.

Originally Posted by deacon blues

Accuse him of believing that it's okay for Christians to read their Bibles while watching porn. Who would take a person like that seriously? No one of course. But then again, there isn't anyone around here that believes that, including me.

DB, there are people in your very own city who believe that it is ok to do all kinds of insanity and stay in right standing with God. Who would take a person like that serious? People in your group, because all a guy like that has to do is say he repented. Then he is stood up to give his testimony, maybe even write a book? Good grief.

Originally Posted by deacon blues

Sad story.

I believe if a man falls, those who are spiritual should restore him per Galatians 6:1. If the man wasn't receptive to restoration, to going through a process that would help him personally get right with God, and live a life of integrity and purity, then it's unfortunate he continues to do what he's doing.

The idea of restoration for ministers is a different debate, but I do believe there are instances where it's appropriate. In other cases no.

Restoration to the pew, never to the pulpit.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by shazeep

or when we rebound, anyway. Nice.

Coming from a guy who believes Muslims are saved.

[deacon blues]

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

Bro, the great problem is that your groups focuses on sinning, not on winning.

Paul seemed to focus quite a bit on sin in the life of believers in his Epistles. John spends almost two chapters of his first Epistle talking about sin in the life of believers.

It is like going to your Insurance agency and telling them you want car insurance. Yet, that insurance you will purchase because you will be crashing your vehicle from time to time. No, I have car insurance, but haven't made a claim in years. So, therefore my insurance rate is low. My drivers license has no issues. When you get your drivers license you start out with a perfect license. Yet, you have never driven anywhere. But if you don't maintain the perfect record by paying attention you get points against your license. Get enough and you lose your license forever. There is where Jesus is the advocate, not a second person in a god squad pleading a case with a greater deity. But His atonement of the Cross being the advocacy, the blood spread along the lintel and door. Which causes the death angel to passover. Making Jesus our passover. Not a band-aid on a seeping bullet wound.

This is a perfect metaphor for legalism.

Salvation is an insurance policy?

Using your faulty analogy I would say that actually not only did you not have a perfect driving record, you had no driver's license at all. You were actually in prison on death row and Jesus came, paid the debt you owed, went to the judge, had your record expunged, and you were set free. All because Jesus loves you, and had compassion upon you. You didn't deserve it. You didn't earn it. God simply chose to love you and chose to do this for you.

As a Christian you have had to file claims for years. At least I hope you have. Your record isn't perfect, even since being born again. Your car premium may be low, but your soul premium is higher than you could ever afford. You need every day grace. You need His mercies which are new every morning. Hopefully you are overcoming, hopefully you're getting in fewer and fewer wrecks. But I guarantee you are breaking the law more than you'd like to admit.

I John 1:8
If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us.

That was written to believers---to the church.

[deacon blues]

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

Yet, while you say you believe in change, your group denies it deed. You all talk about change how you go from bad to good, but in practice you believe bad will always be bad. They may be good, but the good is only a Jesus mask that they wear. Underneath is the wretched man. The wretched man who is chained and leashed. The Jesus mask isn't supposed to drop, but at times it does, and the mask is just rearranged back. Actually the dose of super humbleness comes through all the time, and allows everyone to know that they are perpetually in sorry condition.

Paul said "Romans 7:18
For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing..."

Paul said he was a wretched man in Romans 7 "oh wretched man that I AM!" Present tense. Apostle. Preacher of the Gospel. Church planter. Christian. Follower of Jesus. Chief of sinners. Wretched man.

Psychological projection 101.

Second time you bring this up.

Why?

Because it is what you do.

I keep bringing it up because you keep doing it. Stop doing it and I'll stop pointing it out.

I never accused you of watching porn while reading Bible. It was leading into my discussion on Bob Coy of Calvary Chapel. Who was caught for surfing the internet looking at porn. But, when a rock is thrown into a pack of dogs, the one who let's out a yelp is the one who was hit. Still for the record no one is calling into question your Internet wanderings.

Ha! Well that's original. I'm not yelping, but whatever. You make a statement about people believing that it's hypocritical to be reading your Bible while watching porn---that some people believe that's okay. I simply said I don't know of anyone who believes that but you try to define us in such preposterous ways---essentially straw man building.

And now you insinuate that my protestations to your absurdity is an indication of my "internet wanderings". You follow that with your "for the record" disclaimer. You should be running for president. You're as slick as the best politician. Go ahead keep up with the ad hominems. It's what you do.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by deacon blues

Paul seemed to focus quite a bit on sin in the life of believers in his Epistles. John spends almost two chapters of his first Epistle talking about sin in the life of believers.

DB, Paul and John are constantly telling (like Jesus) people that they must stop sinning. Romans 6:11-12, Even so consider yourselves to be dead to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus, do not let sin control the way you live; do not give in to sinful desires. This was instruction to people who had fully active FREE WILLS. People who could make life choices, and the apostle instructs them to all the Jesus to lead, instead of their human wills. But this wasn't something new, but it was in the beginning Genesis 4:7, God tells Cain that he had a choice. He had full power over sin. Why? Because GOD said so "If you do what is correct, will you not be accepted? But if you that which is incorrect, sin is crouching at your door; it desires to have you, but you must rule over it." In Psalm 119:133 the Psalmist actually is saying, "guide my feet according to your word; let no sin rule over me." This isn't anything new in the scripture. The Judean and the Israelite understood what Jesus meant by "Go and sin NO MORE. Romans 6:14 the apostle states, "sin shall no longer be your master, because you are not under the law, but under grace." Your idea of Grace isn't Bible grace but bordering on Antinomianism? Your mantra of how you don't know how God puts up with you? Seriously? Do you tell that to new converts in your congregation? When I first came to God, if the preacher talked that sorry, I would of told him he needed psychotherapy, because what he is currently in isn't working.

Originally Posted by deacon blues

This is a perfect metaphor for legalism.

Oh, so it made too much sense so you are going to get mad?

Whatever.

Originally Posted by deacon blues

Salvation is an insurance policy?

1 John 2:1 IF you sin. Not that salvation is an insurance policy, but the verse you tried to pawn off has the word IF, not WHEN. Big difference, big big difference. The apostle isn't telling his people that they are all going to sin, far from it. But he tells them IF they sin they have the advocate of the Cross, and the shed blood. Jesus told the woman GO and SIN NO MORE, not Go and sin less, or go and continue in sin but you will be covered for past, present, and future sins?

Originally Posted by deacon blues

Using your faulty analogy I would say that actually not only did you not have a perfect driving record, you had no driver's license at all. You were actually in prison on death row and Jesus came, paid the debt you owed, went to the judge, had your record expunged, and you were set free. All because Jesus loves you, and had compassion upon you. You didn't deserve it. You didn't earn it. God simply chose to love you and chose to do this for you.

Wow! You really have no idea why the Judeans and Israelites were waiting for the Messiah? They had drivers licenses, even had a remnant which were waiting for the coming of the Messiah. Individuals who were blameless like the parents of John the Baptist. Luke 1:5-6 There was in the days of Herod, the king of Judaea, a certain priest named Zacharias, of the course of Abia: and his wife was of the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elisabeth.
And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless.

DB, the Messiah came to finish the transgression, to put an end to their sin, to atone for their guilt, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to confirm the prophetic vision, and to anoint the Most Holy Place. Daniel 9:24 Hence the reason why Acts 2:38 has the words Remission of Sins. The Law was given to Israel, not to the Gentiles. But the Gentiles were included, but through Christ didn't have to keep the Law. In Acts 15 they were admonished to give up their pagan rituals of drinking blood Psalm 16:4, eating strangled sacrifices Exodus 34:15, and temple prostitution Deuteronomy 23:17-18 CEV. This is what the letter stated which was carried by Paul and Barnabas to Antioch, Syria and Cilicia Acts 15:20-28. The apostles, elders, and churchmen stated that the Gentiles leaving their once pagan ceremonies were essential. By what you claim to believe, the churches of Asia Minor wouldn't of had to leave any of their religious traditions behind.

Originally Posted by deacon blues

As a Christian you have had to file claims for years.

How horrible, you give no hope of attaining the prize of the high calling in Jesus Philippians 3:14. Paul uses the word τέλειος which means full grown, mature. Paul tells those who were mature to continually press on towards the mark. It was about excellency, not crashing their cars into each other everyday. You have a Bumper Car Christianity, instead of decent safe responsible driving.

Originally Posted by deacon blues

At least I hope you have. Your record isn't perfect, even since being born again.

Bro, people make mistakes, those are growing learning curves. What you are trying to teach is that people are so jacked up, they shouldn't even be behind a wheel.

Originally Posted by deacon blues

Your car premium may be low, but your soul premium is higher than you could ever afford.

Therefore you give up the entire world for your soul, instead of keeping the world and losing your soul.

Originally Posted by deacon blues

You need every day grace.

Bro, Jesus really saved us, He doesn't do a partial job. He who started a GOOD WORK in you is faithful to complete it. He does this, not anything you can do through some human discipline. Sorry, but I'm in Christianity not AA or NA.

Originally Posted by deacon blues

You need His mercies which are new every morning.

DB, honestly, this isn't about struggling to stop smoking cigarettes. Jesus works with everyone on a case to case basis. Yet, in Matthew 5:48 He tells His followers to be as full grown, mature, fully aged, perfect, as the Father. Not a father, but the Father. I went to Baptist, Charismatics, and they all had the Alcoholics Anonymous pep talk in every sermon. But when I met the Apostolics, they told me that instead of talk, you can have the Holy Ghost and POWER. Thank you Jesus for an Apostolic One God preacher! Bro, it gets better, and betterer, even bettererer every day! Hooray!

Originally Posted by deacon blues

Hopefully you are overcoming, hopefully you're getting in fewer and fewer wrecks.

You don't mean that, because your teaching actually motivates people to beat themselves with a cat o nine tails chanting "I'm not worthy, I'm not worthy, I'm not worthy." They are constantly feeling like they have to go back to GO and not even collect the 100 dollars. Stuck with the hat instead of the little scotty dog. Thank you Jesus for the Apostolic movement which opened the Bible and showed me it was about the Holy Ghost, prayer, study, which maintained you in the overcomer's lane.

Originally Posted by deacon blues

But I guarantee you are breaking the law more than you'd like to admit.

What did I tell you! Like clock work, you guys pump up the tires, and then just before they leave to drive the car, you deflate their wheels. What a sorry gospel. Good News which isn't Good News is just Sad News.

Originally Posted by deacon blues

I John 1:8
If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us.

That was written to believers---to the church.

Here we go again! Here you are cherry picking and trying to show us that John was telling his readers that they are never without sin? Really? This is the same Bible book that has 1st John 3? Do you ever put anything into context? Or is it just a habit for you to play fast and loose with the scripture? Peter said that, "speaking of these things in all of Paul's letters. Some of his comments are hard to understand, and those who are ignorant and unstable have twisted his letters to mean something quite different, just as they do with other parts of scripture. And this will result in their damnation."

DB, 1st John 1:8 has to buttress up with 1st John 3:6, also 1st John 3:8. He that commits sin is of the DEVIL. Bro, 1st John 1:8 must be placed in its context, with the other verses. Like 1st John 1:6 that if we fellowship darkness while we are walking with Christ we are liars, and have no truth in us. 1st John 1:9 is telling the Judeans that they must confess their sins and cleanse them 100%. The first century Judean believed he was born with a clean driving record because he was a Judean. But it was even more than that. Judea, as all Israel had a cast system, it depended on who you were, and who you were born under. If you were of the religious cast you were automatically looked upon as righteous, but if you were born cripple, blind or beggar, you must of done something wrong, either you or your parents. John is speaking to those who believed like Nicodemus that their first birth was the most important, because they came from privileged stock totally healthy who needed no physician.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by deacon blues

Paul said "Romans 7:18
For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing..."

Paul said he was a wretched man in Romans 7 "oh wretched man that I AM!" Present tense. Apostle. Preacher of the Gospel. Church planter. Christian. Follower of Jesus. Chief of sinners. Wretched man.

Paul wasn't speaking of himself because it he was he contradicts himself in his own writings. But that doesn't matter to you, because you teach contradictions. Phil 4:9 Paul taught the Greeks in Asia Minor that they were to imitate him? A wretched man? DB, look up the Greek for "chief" in 1st Timothy 1:15. It means "foremost" prime in numeral, dude, you are teaching a congregation that Paul is calling himself a bigger sinner than the Roman Emperor Nero? Or anyone living at that time? Bro, that disqualifies as a minister according to his own standards in the very same epistle. 1st Timothy 3:2, you have Paul writing ministers that they MUST BE WITHOUT BLAME. First among all who sin? That is what chief of sinners means. Yet, we must keep in mind that you are a cherry picker, and therefore take scripture out of its context. So, let's see, 1st Timothy 1:13 Even though I was ONCE a blasphemer and a persecutor and a violent man, I was shown mercy because I acted in ignorance and unbelief. Well, well, well, look what we have here? Paul was speaking of a past life. Not that he was actively the foremost of all who sin. DB, what on earth are you teaching the yard stick wielding children?

Originally Posted by deacon blues

I keep bringing it up because you keep doing it. Stop doing it and I'll stop pointing it out.

Ha! Well that's original. I'm not yelping, but whatever. You make a statement about people believing that it's hypocritical to be reading your Bible while watching porn---that some people believe that's okay. I simply said I don't know of anyone who believes that but you try to define us in such preposterous ways---essentially straw man building.

And now you insinuate that my protestations to your absurdity is an indication of my "internet wanderings". You follow that with your "for the record" disclaimer. You should be running for president. You're as slick as the best politician. Go ahead keep up with the ad hominems. It's what you do.

DB if I thought you were watching porn I would tell you.

Anyone who KNOWS me, knows I would tell you..

No disclaimer bro, no disclaimer.

[deacon blues]

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

DB, Paul and John are constantly telling (like Jesus) people that they must stop sinning.

Of course we are to stop sinning! How you extract that I believe a Christian should continue in sin is silly. You mischaracterize me over and over (straw man building) because I don't agree with your version of the Gospel.

Did Jesus die and fulfill the Law just to give us a whole new set of rules to obsess over and strive to keep? Did He suffer like He did so we would have to once again go through the madness of trying to work hard to be good??? No no no!

Grace gives us the impetus to choose wisely and to live righteously. We are made right before God through faith. The righteousness of Jesus is imputed to us. The desire to do what is right in God's sight is given to us with a new heart and a new Spirit. To as many as received Him, to them gave He the power to become---BECOME---the sons of God. We are becoming. We aren't perfect. We are becoming.

Yes He who BEGAN a good work in you will be faithful TO COMPLETE. That means we are INCOMPLETE.

Your focus is on not sinning = OT legalism.

Our focus is God's Grace = NT law of the Spirit.

Oh, so it made too much sense so you are going to get mad?

Whatever.

You like to make up stuff don't you? I bet you used to tuck hand towels in the back collars of your shirts and pretend to be Batman when you were a kid. What are you talking about?

1 John 2:1 IF you sin.

I don't disagree with IF in this verse, but are you saying it's possible for a believer to attain perfection in this life?

[quote}
And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless. [/quote]

Blameless means perfection? Blameless means a good and respectable reputation. My dad is a blameless man. He is honest and has integrity. He is a godly man. His reputation is impeccable. But my dad isn't perfect.

In Acts 15 they were admonished to give up their pagan rituals of drinking blood Psalm 16:4, eating strangled sacrifices Exodus 34:15, and temple prostitution Deuteronomy 23:17-18 CEV. This is what the letter stated which was carried by Paul and Barnabas to Antioch, Syria and Cilicia Acts 15:20-28. The apostles, elders, and churchmen stated that the Gentiles leaving their once pagan ceremonies were essential. By what you claim to believe, the churches of Asia Minor wouldn't of had to leave any of their religious traditions behind.

Yet Paul later writes that there is nothing sinful about eating meat offered to idols. In Acts 15 they were fighting against legalists trying to enforce a New Testament set of works on Gentile Christians. The church was a work in progress. It still is. And we are still having to fight against the carnal urge to turn the beauty of salvation into a depressing, difficult, drudgery---working hard to keep the rules, regulations, standards, dotting every i and crossing every t. Salvation by works is impossible.

Did Jesus die only for your past sins? How is that possible? He died WHILE WE WERE YET SINNERS---and we didn't even exist! You believe Jesus only died for the sins We commit up to being born again? After that we are on our own?

How horrible, you give no hope of attaining the prize of the high calling in Jesus Philippians 3:14.

Not true. The prize is attainable. I John 3 tells us that when we shall see Jesus we shall be like Him for we shall see Him as He is. That's when it happens. As we walk with Jesus in this life we become more and more like Him, sure. But perfection won't happen while walking on this planet. We still have our flesh, and in our flesh dwells no good thing.

Bro, people make mistakes, those are growing learning curves. What you are trying to teach is that people are so jacked up, they shouldn't even be behind a wheel.

So mistakes aren't sins?

Therefore you give up the entire world for your soul, instead of keeping the world and losing your soul.

Who said anything about keeping the world? You mean if I enjoy a movie at the cinema, eat lobster tail, grow a beard, wear Nike shoes, swim at the beach, play basketball, go bowling, attend a Little League baseball game, wear Bermuda shorts, play Monopoly, and own a television I can't be saved? Jesus isn't obsessive-compulsive. Neither should we be. We can be saved, live lives of integrity and purity, enjoy the abundant life that Jesus gave us, and live securely that when we became children of God our Heavenly Father is committed to us and with us and in us. He guides us and helps us to make every day choices that lead us to living overcoming lives.

God has not given us the spirit of fear. I don't take His grace as a license to sin. It's liberty to be free from the law of sin and death. IF I fail to live up to the standard that is God in Christ, I am convicted, I confess and repent, and I don't sweat it. If my heart condemns me, God is greater than my heart. His grace is sufficient.

Bro, Jesus really saved us, He doesn't do a partial job. He who started a GOOD WORK in you is faithful to complete it. He does this, not anything you can do through some human discipline. Sorry, but I'm in Christianity not AA or NA.

I'm in Christ.

I'm not in Christianty. That's a religion. I'm in a relationship with God.

DB, honestly, this isn't about struggling to stop smoking cigarettes. Jesus works with everyone on a case to case basis. Yet, in Matthew 5:48 He tells His followers to be as full grown, mature, fully aged, perfect, as the Father. Not a father, but the Father.

Straw man. Who said anything about smoking cigarettes?

Be perfect as your Father in heaven is perfect. Do you believe Jesus intended for people to listen to that statement and believe that perfection in this life is possible? Talk about out of context. Jesus in the Sermon on the Mount is addressing the interpretations of the Law the Pharisees taught. "You have heard it said..." Jesus reiterates over and over. Then Jesus shows how the conventional wisdom still wasn't good enough. Jesus exposes the fallacy of legalism because God's standard was greater than the Pharisees'. Holiness, perfection, this is God's expectation. No matter how high the bar the Jews set, they still were guilty of breaking the law.

Jesus was saying if you're going to work your way to salvation---perfection is the only way. Jesus was subtly pointing to Himself. He earlier said that He did not come to destroy the law but to fulfill it. He was going to obey every commandment, every statute, every law of the OT, living a life of perfection. In fact, the whole Sermon on the Mount ultimately was about Jesus. Jesus is everything personified in Matthew 5-7.

Do you actually believe it's possible to attain perfection in this life EB?

[deacon blues]

You don't mean that, because your teaching actually motivates people to beat themselves with a cat o nine tails chanting "I'm not worthy, I'm not worthy, I'm not worthy." They are constantly feeling like they have to go back to GO and not even collect the 100 dollars. Stuck with the hat instead of the little scotty dog.

I do mean that. But I know you have to keep building the straw man and defining me as you see fit in order to keep arguing with someone who isn't me.

I think you struggle with grace because you struggle with EB. You are afraid of a Gospel of Grace that emphasizes the love of God for us because you can't control that. Some people can't handle the freedom we have in Christ because they will go off the deep end with the liberty.

I gladly declare "I'm not worthy!"

Monopoly, another bad metaphor, but I'll go ahead and point out that in fact you pass GO many, many, many times within the course of the game. More accurately, we have all landed on GO TO JAIL and for those of us who have found Jesus---have been given a GET OUT OF JAIL FREE card! We didn't earn it, or deserve it, it was simply given to us because God is gracious! We do pass GO, we do get to collect $200!!!

Thank you Jesus for the Apostolic movement which opened the Bible and showed me it was about the Holy Ghost, prayer, study, which maintained you in the overcomer's lane.

I'm sorry but the Bible is about JESUS. This is the problem with the Apostolic movement. It's about something else, Jesus is a nice byline in the story, but it's about POWER, and MOVES OF GOD, and BLOW OUT SERVICES, and PROVING WE ARE THE ONLY ONES GOING TO HEAVEN (an actual quote from one of the top evangelists in the UPC). No, the Bible is about the story of God's .ove for fallen humanity, His plan to save us, and Jesus Christ who was the centerpiece of that plan.

What did I tell you! Like clock work, you guys pump up the tires, and then just before they leave to drive the car, you deflate their wheels. What a sorry gospel. Good News which isn't Good News is just Sad News.

Still won't answer the question. Have you sinned since becoming a Christian? If you have, and I'll go out on a limb and say yes you have, here's the GOOD NEWS: Jesus died for ALL of your sins, including the ones after being born again. Nothing sad about that. What IS sad is that you fight so hard against God's grace for another gospel of works, striving, self discipline, and rules keeping.

Here we go again! Here you are cherry picking and trying to show us that John was telling his readers that they are never without sin? Really? This is the same Bible book that has 1st John 3? Do you ever put anything into context? Or is it just a habit for you to play fast and loose with the scripture? Peter said that, "speaking of these things in all of Paul's letters. Some of his comments are hard to understand, and those who are ignorant and unstable have twisted his letters to mean something quite different, just as they do with other parts of scripture. And this will result in their damnation."

Yes, I know you think I'm lost. Fortunately I'm not living to win your approval. I know in whom I have believed, and am persuaded that He is able to keep that which I've committed unto Him against that day.

DB, 1st John 1:8 has to buttress up with 1st John 3:6, also 1st John 3:8. He that commits sin is of the DEVIL. Bro, 1st John 1:8 must be placed in its context, with the other verses. Like 1st John 1:6 that if we fellowship darkness while we are walking with Christ we are liars, and have no truth in us. 1st John 1:9 is telling the Judeans that they must confess their sins and cleanse them 100%. The first century Judean believed he was born with a clean driving record because he was a Judean. But it was even more than that. Judea, as all Israel had a cast system, it depended on who you were, and who you were born under. If you were of the religious cast you were automatically looked upon as righteous, but if you were born cripple, blind or beggar, you must of done something wrong, either you or your parents. John is speaking to those who believed like Nicodemus that their first birth was the most important, because they came from privileged stock totally healthy who needed no physician.

If you don't understand John in his Epistle you can only conclude that he is confused and maybe bipolar. He contradicts himself throughout---unless you understand the difference between one who CONTINUES in sin versus one who fails, gets back up, dusts himself off, and walks forward with Christ. Will he fail again? Probably. But he isn't actively and openly living a life of willful rebellion against God. HUGE DIFFERENCE.