Are all Catholics lost?

[mfblume]

A Catholic is someone who believes these statements:

"...the Church has infallibly defined as follows:

" There is but one universal ["Catholic" means universal] Church of the faithful, outside which NO ONE at all is saved. (Pope Innocent III, Fourth Lateran Council, 1215.)

" We declare, say, define, and pronounce that it is absolutely necessary for the salvation of every human creature to be subject to the Roman Pontiff. (Pope Boniface VIII, the Bull, Unam Sanctum, 1302.)

" The most Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes, and preaches that NONE of those existing outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics [Protestants] and schismatics, can have a share in life eternal; but that they will go into the eternal fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels, UNLESS before death they are joined with Her; and that so important is the unity of this ecclesiastical body that only those remaining within this unity can profit by the sacraments of the Church unto salvation, and they alone can receive an eternal recompense for their fasts, their almsgivings, their other works of Christian piety and the duties of a Christian soldier. No one, let his almsgiving be as great as it may, NO ONE, even if he pour out his blood for the Name of Christ, can be saved, unless he remain within the bosom and the unity of the Catholic Church. (Pope Eugene IV, the Bull Cantate Domino, 1441).

" These infallible declarations of the Popes are part of what was once commonly referred to as the dogma, Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus -- Outside the Church there is no salvation. Dogmas are revealed truths by God through the Church's Magisterium. Truth cannot change. This dogma is key, because without it, there would be no need to evangelize. This dogma embraces everything that is of absolute necessity for salvation and which can only be found in the one True Church of Jesus Christ, The Catholic Church: the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass, the Sacraments and Priesthood to administer them.

" Do away with this one dogma and the Church has no claim to universal authority over all men on behalf of Jesus Christ.

"The dogma Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus cannot change..."

"'Outside the Church there is no salvation' is a solemnly declared dogma which has always been believed and taught by the Church. Were this not so, it could never have been defined ex cathedra in the first place, for no Pope can declare something to be true unless it has always been true, if only recognized implicitly, such as the Immaculate Conception."

So, Shazeep, you should ask A catholic who stands by these statements if they believe everyone except catholics are lost.

[shazeep]

Originally Posted by Ferd

any catholic who has repented of their sins, been baptized in Jesus name and received the Holy Ghost with the evidence of speaking in other tongues is saved.

i would argue that they are not, if for no other reason than that they have not held out to the end; neverminding your likely unScriptural interpretation of speaking in tongues, wadr. If that works for you, then great, be sure in your own mind; but that is your doctrine, that you will be judged by, not theirs, which they have a right to. Let them seek their own salvation.

My personal doctrine is that baptism in Christ's Name is a baptism of fire, and i doubt that even makes sense to anyone here, similar to "holding out to the end." What do you guys think, this means you must hold on to your doctrines until you die? but you know what? even if you do think that is what that means, so what? it's an interesting point for discussion, and maybe another doctrine could come out of it to divide people more, and for lawyers to argue about, but as far as how any belief in this area would alter how one is supposed to treat other people, it is as valuable as any other doctrine, which is to say not.

If you have to grill a Catholic before determining if you can consider them equal to you or not, you have prolly missed the point imo. You certainly close yourself off from the Catholic deemed lost, and could not learn anything from them that they had to show you, simply by assuming a superior position--"Any Catholic who has not done these things, that i found in Scripture so i must be right, is lost." You are fooling yourself imo.

If you seek where you agree, and dont bring up the doctrines that you have in conflict, which will not affect your daily interactions with your neighbor one iota--unless they do, which is on you--your doctrines will assume their rightful place, which is in your heart, for you to believe, whether anyone else believes them or not. If i am wrong, then someone please witness the first bite of fruit gained from one of your pet doctrines, Oneness, say. Aside from dividing you from Trinnies, what has this done for you?

So it is all very good to say what you did, there is even Scripture for it, but i would beware how this changes your heart, and if this turns people into projects for you, to be worked on for their improvement, don't be surprised when you walk into a room and it empties; no one needs that kind of help. This is not reflecting Christ, imo, but feeding one's ego. Of course i mean this generally speaking, not directed at you Ferd.

If Love conquers all, then why not make that your doctrine?

[shazeep]

So, Shazeep, you should ask A catholic who stands by these statements if they believe everyone except catholics are lost.

i would never do that, because i do not care a whit what some Catholic lawyer tells me about their doctrines, and a humble Catholic would not belabor me with them. I am not fearful about Catholics, or Muslims; i fear hypocrites if i fear anything.

The central point might be that whatever their answer would be, God is not required to pay them any attention anyway, same as for you. You can say all Catholics are lost all you like--how many Catholics have perished due to your proclamation? How many Catholics have been swayed to change their mind based upon your opinion, do you think? So then, what has this utterance, this belief of yours and others, served to do? It has only accomplished one thing--to out you as judgemental, which quoting Christ's contrasting message of forgiveness and love to your consternation just verifies--or bam witness how this position has improved your or anyone else's life, and i will apologize.

All you have done is make enemies of friends, as near as i can tell. And you would react no differently if the shoe were on the other foot. Understand with the same measure you use, it will be measured out to you. You are flouting a spiritual principle to uphold a doctrine of men, which all have some basis in Scripture. It is you who is lost, the moment you look down on the Catholic, which includes 'helping' them 'see their error,' which always involves a doctrinal discussion, and never seems to involve doing the right thing in daily life. A pox on your doctrines--which btw is exactly what you got. If doctrine is supposed to make you so much better, why are you so much worse? Speaking generally of course; i don't think you are a bad person at all, for the record.

[shazeep]

as this is a sensitive subject, your vote will not be audited, and will remain anonymous.

[Esaias]

Shaz, do you even know any catholics?

I do. Family, even.

You have no idea what you're babbling about.

As usual.

[shazeep]

could you be more specific? ty

i'm actually still in Orlando, in a lapsed Catholic home at the moment, an Italian friend; but i'm missing the point there i guess. I used to volunteer at Catholic Charities, so yes i have known a few Catholics. As long as we avoided doctrine we got along fine. None of them seemed anxious for me to point out the error of their ways, and beyond repeated invitations to their church, religion actually rarely...never came up. They even helped any Wiccans who came in asking, what do you think of that?

[Evang.Benincasa]

Did Jesus say " be ye nice, and enter into eternal life" ?

[shazeep]

you must interpret love your neighbor fulfills all the law and the prophets for yourself, EB, but i don't think 'being nice' is too far off the mark as you are reflected to others, iow as how others will see you, especially considering the fruit of the gifts of the spirit; these would all be qualities that we would ascribe to a 'nice' person would we not? Be hard on yourself. If 'nice' is a synonym for 'kind,' then yes, give me a nice person over someone pedantically and obnoxiously 'correct' every time.

God’s Righteous Judgment

1Therefore, any one of you, who judges is without excuse. For when you judge another, you condemn yourself, since you, the judge, do the same things. 2We know that God’s judgment on those who do such things is based on the truth. 3Do you really think — anyone of you who judges those who do such things yet do the same — that you will escape God’s judgment? 4Or do you despise the riches of His kindness..?

how much plainer could it be?

and become one to another kind, tender-hearted, forgiving one another,
according as also God in Christ did forgive you.

The love is long-suffering, it is kind, the love doth not envy, the
love doth not vaunt itself, is not puffed up

Instead, he must be kind to everyone. He must be a good teacher.

[shazeep]

if you are beating people up over 50 cents--this deathly dwelling on others' sins--when you have been forgiven a jillion dollars, dont be surprised when your debt is called in. God will not be mocked. Call people you have never met lost all you like, despite Scripture, but you are playing with fire. You think you have found a passage to use against others, little realizing the passages that now apply to you. Instead, he must be kind to everyone. He must be a good teacher. Telling someone they are lost is hardly kind now, is it.

[Jason B]

Originally Posted by thephnxman

Shazeep: you only need about three verses, without contradiction,
to prove your claim. They are the scriptures that relate to the gospel
that saves!
You also need to differentiate between the souls of man, and all those
institutions that pretend to proclaim truth.

Now this:
There are only three "religions" in the world: the many gods religion,
who really are heathens; the no god(s) religion, who are atheists; and
the ONE GOD religion.
There are only TWO churches. The True Church, called out by the Lord
Jesus Christ; and the false church, which is every other "church".

And how can anyone know the true from the false? By this one scripture,
which is attested by the rest of the Bible: "There is no other NAME under
heaven, given among men, in which we must be saved."

Any other name is by the spirit of the anti-christ!

Only one true church, and it happens to be the exact doctrine you believe, and every one else is a phony and going to hell. How original.