How old do you think the universe is?

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Amanah

Research material for Brother Blume

http://separationtruth.com/resources/GAP-SECTION+4.pdf

Interesting. Thanks!

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by mfblume

I would like to add that I agree with you that use of a word determines which of the various definitions we are to realize. But even that can be obscured by a predertemined thought we may not even realize we're reading into the passage.

What are your thoughts about Jeremiah 4 and their reference to Genesis?

Jere 4:23-26 Jeremiah seems to describes a pre-Adamite destruction.

Jere 4:23 I beheld the earth, and, lo, it was without form, and void; and the heavens, and they had no light. I beheld the mountains, and, lo, they trembled, and all the hills moved lightly. I beheld, and, lo, there was no man, and all the birds of the heavens were fled. I beheld, and, lo, the fruitful place was a wilderness, and all the cities thereof were broken down at the presence of the LORD, and by his fierce anger.

Is it Pre-Adamite (before Adam) because we read it occurred when the earth was "void and without form". That fits Gen 1:2.

WHEN were mountains trembling?
WHEN was there no man?
WHEN was the fruitfulness place a wilderness?

ANSWER: When the earth was void and without form (Jeremiah 4:23).

This chapter was speaking about Israel's sin and Jerusalem's judgment. But their sin seems to remind God of something far more ancient that was similar and also required judgment -- rebellion. When considering their judgment and sin, He was reminded of the time the earth was void and without form.

And it is interesting that these passages in Jeremiah are very similar to what we read about Lucifer. I know Lucifer was a Babylonian king, but it's like we're reading about more than him...

Isai 14:16-17 They that see thee shall narrowly look upon thee, and consider thee, saying, Is this the man that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms; That made the world as a wilderness, and destroyed the cities thereof; that opened not the house of his prisoners?

JEREMIAH
4:23 ...the earth, and, lo, it was without form, and void;
ISAIAH
14:12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer,

JEREMIAH
4:24 ...the mountains, and, lo, they trembled, and all the hills moved lightly
ISAIAH
14:16 ...made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms

JEREMIAH
4:26 ...the fruitful place was a wilderness,
ISAIAH
14:17 ...made the world as a wilderness,

JEREMIAH
4:26 ...all the cities thereof were broken down
ISAIAH
14:17 ...and destroyed the cities thereof

Jeremiah 4:1-31 KJV If thou wilt return, O Israel, saith the LORD, return unto me: and if thou wilt put away thine abominations out of my sight, then shalt thou not remove. (2) And thou shalt swear, The LORD liveth, in truth, in judgment, and in righteousness; and the nations shall bless themselves in him, and in him shall they glory. (3) For thus saith the LORD to the men of Judah and Jerusalem, Break up your fallow ground, and sow not among thorns. (4) Circumcise yourselves to the LORD, and take away the foreskins of your heart, ye men of Judah and inhabitants of Jerusalem: lest my fury come forth like fire, and burn that none can quench it, because of the evil of your doings. (5) Declare ye in Judah, and publish in Jerusalem; and say, Blow ye the trumpet in the land: cry, gather together, and say, Assemble yourselves, and let us go into the defenced cities. (6) Set up the standard toward Zion: retire, stay not: for I will bring evil from the north, and a great destruction. (7) The lion is come up from his thicket, and the destroyer of the Gentiles is on his way; he is gone forth from his place to make thy land desolate; and thy cities shall be laid waste, without an inhabitant. (8) For this gird you with sackcloth, lament and howl: for the fierce anger of the LORD is not turned back from us. (9) And it shall come to pass at that day, saith the LORD, that the heart of the king shall perish, and the heart of the princes; and the priests shall be astonished, and the prophets shall wonder. (10) Then said I, Ah, Lord GOD! surely thou hast greatly deceived this people and Jerusalem, saying, Ye shall have peace; whereas the sword reacheth unto the soul. (11) At that time shall it be said to this people and to Jerusalem, A dry wind of the high places in the wilderness toward the daughter of my people, not to fan, nor to cleanse, (12) Even a full wind from those places shall come unto me: now also will I give sentence against them. (13) Behold, he shall come up as clouds, and his chariots shall be as a whirlwind: his horses are swifter than eagles. Woe unto us! for we are spoiled. (14) O Jerusalem, wash thine heart from wickedness, that thou mayest be saved. How long shall thy vain thoughts lodge within thee? (15) For a voice declareth from Dan, and publisheth affliction from mount Ephraim. (16) Make ye mention to the nations; behold, publish against Jerusalem, that watchers come from a far country, and give out their voice against the cities of Judah. (17) As keepers of a field, are they against her round about; because she hath been rebellious against me, saith the LORD. (18) Thy way and thy doings have procured these things unto thee; this is thy wickedness, because it is bitter, because it reacheth unto thine heart. (19) My bowels, my bowels! I am pained at my very heart; my heart maketh a noise in me; I cannot hold my peace, because thou hast heard, O my soul, the sound of the trumpet, the alarm of war. (20) Destruction upon destruction is cried; for the whole land is spoiled: suddenly are my tents spoiled, and my curtains in a moment. (21) How long shall I see the standard, and hear the sound of the trumpet? (22) For my people is foolish, they have not known me; they are sottish children, and they have none understanding: they are wise to do evil, but to do good they have no knowledge. (23) I beheld the earth, and, lo, it was without form, and void; and the heavens, and they had no light. (24) I beheld the mountains, and, lo, they trembled, and all the hills moved lightly. (25) I beheld, and, lo, there was no man, and all the birds of the heavens were fled. (26) I beheld, and, lo, the fruitful place was a wilderness, and all the cities thereof were broken down at the presence of the LORD, and by his fierce anger. (27) For thus hath the LORD said, The whole land shall be desolate; yet will I not make a full end. (28) For this shall the earth mourn, and the heavens above be black: because I have spoken it, I have purposed it, and will not repent, neither will I turn back from it. (29) The whole city shall flee for the noise of the horsemen and bowmen; they shall go into thickets, and climb up upon the rocks: every city shall be forsaken, and not a man dwell therein. (30) And when thou art spoiled, what wilt thou do? Though thou clothest thyself with crimson, though thou deckest thee with ornaments of gold, though thou rentest thy face with painting, in vain shalt thou make thyself fair; thy lovers will despise thee, they will seek thy life. (31) For I have heard a voice as of a woman in travail, and the anguish as of her that bringeth forth her first child, the voice of the daughter of Zion, that bewaileth herself, that spreadeth her hands, saying, Woe is me now! for my soul is wearied because of murderers.

It seems to me that what is described in verses 23-26 is explained by verses 27-28, that is to say, what is seen in verses 23-26 is a vision of what is to happen. I do not see anything in the chapter suggesting that what is seen is a throwback to a previous situation. I do not see anything that would suggest to me that anything is being "remembered" except Jerusalem's sins. Verse 23 has the prophet seeing the heavens "and there is no light", and verse 28 has God saying "for this shall the heavens be black". "This" is a reference to the coming judgment upon Jerusalem. Thus, the whole description in verses 23-26 are of a then-future judgment.

At least, that's how it looks to me, just taking the text as is.

This similarity between Jeremiah 4 and Isaiah 14 is easily seen - both concern Babylon executing judgment. Thus in Isaiah we read of the king of Babylon "That (he)made the world as a wilderness, and destroyed the cities thereof; that opened not the house of his prisoners" - vs 17 and in Jeremiah 4 the desolation wrought by the Babylonians is described as "(t)he lion is come up from his thicket, and the destroyer of the Gentiles is on his way; he is gone forth from his place to make thy land desolate; and thy cities shall be laid waste, without an inhabitant."

I do not gather, from the text alone, that either are referring to anything other than what they are directly referring to - Babylon's siege of Jerusalem in Jeremiah, and Babylon's history and downfall in Isaiah. I believe it was catholicism that gave us the idea of some kind of angelic rebellion in heaven. Combined with a belief that the earth is indeed millions or billions of years old, it is easy to see how folks would place that rebellion somewhere in the distant past, and fit it in between verses 1 and 2 of Genesis 1. But, I personally don't see it at this point.

What would be most helpful, is either the prophets, or Jesus, or the apostles, actually mentioning something about a pre-6th Day civilisation that was wrecked by judgment, prompting God to "start over" with the 6 day re-creation week. However, I haven't seen anything like that yet.

[good samaritan]

Originally Posted by Esaias

Jeremiah 4:1-31 KJV If thou wilt return, O Israel, saith the LORD, return unto me: and if thou wilt put away thine abominations out of my sight, then shalt thou not remove. (2) And thou shalt swear, The LORD liveth, in truth, in judgment, and in righteousness; and the nations shall bless themselves in him, and in him shall they glory. (3) For thus saith the LORD to the men of Judah and Jerusalem, Break up your fallow ground, and sow not among thorns. (4) Circumcise yourselves to the LORD, and take away the foreskins of your heart, ye men of Judah and inhabitants of Jerusalem: lest my fury come forth like fire, and burn that none can quench it, because of the evil of your doings. (5) Declare ye in Judah, and publish in Jerusalem; and say, Blow ye the trumpet in the land: cry, gather together, and say, Assemble yourselves, and let us go into the defenced cities. (6) Set up the standard toward Zion: retire, stay not: for I will bring evil from the north, and a great destruction. (7) The lion is come up from his thicket, and the destroyer of the Gentiles is on his way; he is gone forth from his place to make thy land desolate; and thy cities shall be laid waste, without an inhabitant. (8) For this gird you with sackcloth, lament and howl: for the fierce anger of the LORD is not turned back from us. (9) And it shall come to pass at that day, saith the LORD, that the heart of the king shall perish, and the heart of the princes; and the priests shall be astonished, and the prophets shall wonder. (10) Then said I, Ah, Lord GOD! surely thou hast greatly deceived this people and Jerusalem, saying, Ye shall have peace; whereas the sword reacheth unto the soul. (11) At that time shall it be said to this people and to Jerusalem, A dry wind of the high places in the wilderness toward the daughter of my people, not to fan, nor to cleanse, (12) Even a full wind from those places shall come unto me: now also will I give sentence against them. (13) Behold, he shall come up as clouds, and his chariots shall be as a whirlwind: his horses are swifter than eagles. Woe unto us! for we are spoiled. (14) O Jerusalem, wash thine heart from wickedness, that thou mayest be saved. How long shall thy vain thoughts lodge within thee? (15) For a voice declareth from Dan, and publisheth affliction from mount Ephraim. (16) Make ye mention to the nations; behold, publish against Jerusalem, that watchers come from a far country, and give out their voice against the cities of Judah. (17) As keepers of a field, are they against her round about; because she hath been rebellious against me, saith the LORD. (18) Thy way and thy doings have procured these things unto thee; this is thy wickedness, because it is bitter, because it reacheth unto thine heart. (19) My bowels, my bowels! I am pained at my very heart; my heart maketh a noise in me; I cannot hold my peace, because thou hast heard, O my soul, the sound of the trumpet, the alarm of war. (20) Destruction upon destruction is cried; for the whole land is spoiled: suddenly are my tents spoiled, and my curtains in a moment. (21) How long shall I see the standard, and hear the sound of the trumpet? (22) For my people is foolish, they have not known me; they are sottish children, and they have none understanding: they are wise to do evil, but to do good they have no knowledge. (23) I beheld the earth, and, lo, it was without form, and void; and the heavens, and they had no light. (24) I beheld the mountains, and, lo, they trembled, and all the hills moved lightly. (25) I beheld, and, lo, there was no man, and all the birds of the heavens were fled. (26) I beheld, and, lo, the fruitful place was a wilderness, and all the cities thereof were broken down at the presence of the LORD, and by his fierce anger. (27) For thus hath the LORD said, The whole land shall be desolate; yet will I not make a full end. (28) For this shall the earth mourn, and the heavens above be black: because I have spoken it, I have purposed it, and will not repent, neither will I turn back from it. (29) The whole city shall flee for the noise of the horsemen and bowmen; they shall go into thickets, and climb up upon the rocks: every city shall be forsaken, and not a man dwell therein. (30) And when thou art spoiled, what wilt thou do? Though thou clothest thyself with crimson, though thou deckest thee with ornaments of gold, though thou rentest thy face with painting, in vain shalt thou make thyself fair; thy lovers will despise thee, they will seek thy life. (31) For I have heard a voice as of a woman in travail, and the anguish as of her that bringeth forth her first child, the voice of the daughter of Zion, that bewaileth herself, that spreadeth her hands, saying, Woe is me now! for my soul is wearied because of murderers.

It seems to me that what is described in verses 23-26 is explained by verses 27-28, that is to say, what is seen in verses 23-26 is a vision of what is to happen. I do not see anything in the chapter suggesting that what is seen is a throwback to a previous situation. I do not see anything that would suggest to me that anything is being "remembered" except Jerusalem's sins. Verse 23 has the prophet seeing the heavens "and there is no light", and verse 28 has God saying "for this shall the heavens be black". "This" is a reference to the coming judgment upon Jerusalem. Thus, the whole description in verses 23-26 are of a then-future judgment.

At least, that's how it looks to me, just taking the text as is.

This similarity between Jeremiah 4 and Isaiah 14 is easily seen - both concern Babylon executing judgment. Thus in Isaiah we read of the king of Babylon "That (he)made the world as a wilderness, and destroyed the cities thereof; that opened not the house of his prisoners" - vs 17 and in Jeremiah 4 the desolation wrought by the Babylonians is described as "(t)he lion is come up from his thicket, and the destroyer of the Gentiles is on his way; he is gone forth from his place to make thy land desolate; and thy cities shall be laid waste, without an inhabitant."

I do not gather, from the text alone, that either are referring to anything other than what they are directly referring to - Babylon's siege of Jerusalem in Jeremiah, and Babylon's history and downfall in Isaiah. I believe it was catholicism that gave us the idea of some kind of angelic rebellion in heaven. Combined with a belief that the earth is indeed millions or billions of years old, it is easy to see how folks would place that rebellion somewhere in the distant past, and fit it in between verses 1 and 2 of Genesis 1. But, I personally don't see it at this point.

What would be most helpful, is either the prophets, or Jesus, or the apostles, actually mentioning something about a pre-6th Day civilisation that was wrecked by judgment, prompting God to "start over" with the 6 day re-creation week. However, I haven't seen anything like that yet.

Great insight! I see that as well.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Esaias

Jeremiah 4:1-31 KJV If thou wilt return, O Israel, saith the LORD, return unto me: and if thou wilt put away thine abominations out of my sight, then shalt thou not remove. (2) And thou shalt swear, The LORD liveth, in truth, in judgment, and in righteousness; and the nations shall bless themselves in him, and in him shall they glory. (3) For thus saith the LORD to the men of Judah and Jerusalem, Break up your fallow ground, and sow not among thorns. (4) Circumcise yourselves to the LORD, and take away the foreskins of your heart, ye men of Judah and inhabitants of Jerusalem: lest my fury come forth like fire, and burn that none can quench it, because of the evil of your doings. (5) Declare ye in Judah, and publish in Jerusalem; and say, Blow ye the trumpet in the land: cry, gather together, and say, Assemble yourselves, and let us go into the defenced cities. (6) Set up the standard toward Zion: retire, stay not: for I will bring evil from the north, and a great destruction. (7) The lion is come up from his thicket, and the destroyer of the Gentiles is on his way; he is gone forth from his place to make thy land desolate; and thy cities shall be laid waste, without an inhabitant. (8) For this gird you with sackcloth, lament and howl: for the fierce anger of the LORD is not turned back from us. (9) And it shall come to pass at that day, saith the LORD, that the heart of the king shall perish, and the heart of the princes; and the priests shall be astonished, and the prophets shall wonder. (10) Then said I, Ah, Lord GOD! surely thou hast greatly deceived this people and Jerusalem, saying, Ye shall have peace; whereas the sword reacheth unto the soul. (11) At that time shall it be said to this people and to Jerusalem, A dry wind of the high places in the wilderness toward the daughter of my people, not to fan, nor to cleanse, (12) Even a full wind from those places shall come unto me: now also will I give sentence against them. (13) Behold, he shall come up as clouds, and his chariots shall be as a whirlwind: his horses are swifter than eagles. Woe unto us! for we are spoiled. (14) O Jerusalem, wash thine heart from wickedness, that thou mayest be saved. How long shall thy vain thoughts lodge within thee? (15) For a voice declareth from Dan, and publisheth affliction from mount Ephraim. (16) Make ye mention to the nations; behold, publish against Jerusalem, that watchers come from a far country, and give out their voice against the cities of Judah. (17) As keepers of a field, are they against her round about; because she hath been rebellious against me, saith the LORD. (18) Thy way and thy doings have procured these things unto thee; this is thy wickedness, because it is bitter, because it reacheth unto thine heart. (19) My bowels, my bowels! I am pained at my very heart; my heart maketh a noise in me; I cannot hold my peace, because thou hast heard, O my soul, the sound of the trumpet, the alarm of war. (20) Destruction upon destruction is cried; for the whole land is spoiled: suddenly are my tents spoiled, and my curtains in a moment. (21) How long shall I see the standard, and hear the sound of the trumpet? (22) For my people is foolish, they have not known me; they are sottish children, and they have none understanding: they are wise to do evil, but to do good they have no knowledge. (23) I beheld the earth, and, lo, it was without form, and void; and the heavens, and they had no light. (24) I beheld the mountains, and, lo, they trembled, and all the hills moved lightly. (25) I beheld, and, lo, there was no man, and all the birds of the heavens were fled. (26) I beheld, and, lo, the fruitful place was a wilderness, and all the cities thereof were broken down at the presence of the LORD, and by his fierce anger. (27) For thus hath the LORD said, The whole land shall be desolate; yet will I not make a full end. (28) For this shall the earth mourn, and the heavens above be black: because I have spoken it, I have purposed it, and will not repent, neither will I turn back from it. (29) The whole city shall flee for the noise of the horsemen and bowmen; they shall go into thickets, and climb up upon the rocks: every city shall be forsaken, and not a man dwell therein. (30) And when thou art spoiled, what wilt thou do? Though thou clothest thyself with crimson, though thou deckest thee with ornaments of gold, though thou rentest thy face with painting, in vain shalt thou make thyself fair; thy lovers will despise thee, they will seek thy life. (31) For I have heard a voice as of a woman in travail, and the anguish as of her that bringeth forth her first child, the voice of the daughter of Zion, that bewaileth herself, that spreadeth her hands, saying, Woe is me now! for my soul is wearied because of murderers.

It seems to me that what is described in verses 23-26 is explained by verses 27-28, that is to say, what is seen in verses 23-26 is a vision of what is to happen. I do not see anything in the chapter suggesting that what is seen is a throwback to a previous situation. I do not see anything that would suggest to me that anything is being "remembered" except Jerusalem's sins. Verse 23 has the prophet seeing the heavens "and there is no light", and verse 28 has God saying "for this shall the heavens be black". "This" is a reference to the coming judgment upon Jerusalem. Thus, the whole description in verses 23-26 are of a then-future judgment.

At least, that's how it looks to me, just taking the text as is.

This similarity between Jeremiah 4 and Isaiah 14 is easily seen - both concern Babylon executing judgment. Thus in Isaiah we read of the king of Babylon "That (he)made the world as a wilderness, and destroyed the cities thereof; that opened not the house of his prisoners" - vs 17 and in Jeremiah 4 the desolation wrought by the Babylonians is described as "(t)he lion is come up from his thicket, and the destroyer of the Gentiles is on his way; he is gone forth from his place to make thy land desolate; and thy cities shall be laid waste, without an inhabitant."

I do not gather, from the text alone, that either are referring to anything other than what they are directly referring to - Babylon's siege of Jerusalem in Jeremiah, and Babylon's history and downfall in Isaiah. I believe it was catholicism that gave us the idea of some kind of angelic rebellion in heaven. Combined with a belief that the earth is indeed millions or billions of years old, it is easy to see how folks would place that rebellion somewhere in the distant past, and fit it in between verses 1 and 2 of Genesis 1. But, I personally don't see it at this point.

What would be most helpful, is either the prophets, or Jesus, or the apostles, actually mentioning something about a pre-6th Day civilisation that was wrecked by judgment, prompting God to "start over" with the 6 day re-creation week. However, I haven't seen anything like that yet.

I see more behind the overall issue. God used the same terms we find in Genesis 1:2. Like I said, it's actually Israel being judged for rebellion. But it reminded God of something far more ancient. I'm taking the text as it is as well

[mfblume]

Rabbi got back to me:

(My question followed by his response). (I made a Hebrew typo by repeating the Hebrew word bara when I indicated what asa was. He corrected that. ).

Is it true that bara בּרא in Genesis 1:1 means to create or, to make something out of non-existing material (to bring it into existing without having used already existing matter), while asa בּרא in Gen 1:7 and 1:16 means to form or make out of something already in existence? Or are the same thing? If they're not the same thing, what is actual difference?

It sounds like the second root word you're asking about is עשה - do or make, and no, it's not quite the same as ברא - create. Creation does imply something from nothing while doing or making does not. The primary Biblical commentator, Rashi, explains that G-d created everything - all the components of the six days of creation - from nothing on the first day. On the subsequent days of creation, He put them all in their correct places and established them in their routines. Thus, the root word of עשה is used.

...Malkie Janowski

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by mfblume

I see more behind the overall issue. God used the same terms we find in Genesis 1:2. Like I said, it's actually Israel being judged for rebellion. But it reminded God of something far more ancient. I'm taking the text as it is as well

Where does the text say anything about God being reminded of something?

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Esaias

Where does the text say anything about God being reminded of something?

When he speaks of beholding the earth being without form and void. That's how I initially read it.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Excellent thread!

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

Excellent thread!

Amen bro. Thanks for your kinds words, too.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by mfblume

Rabbi got back to me:

(My question followed by his response). (I made a Hebrew typo by repeating the Hebrew word bara when I indicated what asa was. He corrected that. ).

Is it true that bara בּרא in Genesis 1:1 means to create or, to make something out of non-existing material (to bring it into existing without having used already existing matter), while asa בּרא in Gen 1:7 and 1:16 means to form or make out of something already in existence? Or are the same thing? If they're not the same thing, what is actual difference?

It sounds like the second root word you're asking about is עשה - do or make, and no, it's not quite the same as ברא - create. Creation does imply something from nothing while doing or making does not. The primary Biblical commentator, Rashi, explains that G-d created everything - all the components of the six days of creation - from nothing on the first day. On the subsequent days of creation, He put them all in their correct places and established them in their routines. Thus, the root word of עשה is used.

...Malkie Janowski

Any takers?