Should we teach others to rebel against standards?

[hometown guy]

Originally Posted by Tithesmeister

Brother,

I believe that you are misinterpreting this passage. You are certainly not alone. Many people believe and teach, that these verses are referring to pastors. I used to believe it as well. Let’s dig in a little deeper. Some questions:

Does the verse or verses say pastor?

Or are you hearing pastor?

Does any verse in the Bible refer to a pastor as a ruler of other men or ladies, in the church?

Is a pastor in authority over another man in the church?

Are there any scripture passages that contradict your interpretation?

If you could answer these questions, by objective study on your own, it might make it easier to “rightly divide the word”.

Would you be willing to try?

Or are you happy with your opinion?

So why don’t you enlighten us to whom the verse is referring to?

[hometown guy]

Originally Posted by Tithesmeister

This is a timely post. Brother Nic seems to believe that only the pastor has a gift. He is the Apostle, prophet, evangelist, pastor and teacher, all rolled into one. He invites preachers to sit on the sacred platform and speak from the sacred pulpit. It may be a surprise to Brother Nic, that the pulpit is never mentioned in the NT, and only once in the OT.

How did the NT church ever operate in the gifts of the Spirit without a pulpit?

Or a platform?

Well, they seemed to do okay.

Remarkable.

So I take it you tried to be a preacher somewhere and got shot down now your bitter?... am I correct???? I think I am. You sound bitter.

[Nicodemus1968]

Originally Posted by hometown guy

So why don’t you enlighten us to whom the verse is referring to?

Consider the source.

[Nicodemus1968]

Originally Posted by hometown guy

So I take it you tried to be a preacher somewhere and got shot down now your bitter?... am I correct???? I think I am. You sound bitter.

A lot of what he writes comes forth as bitterness. He’ll put words in people’s post to make himself feel better.

[Nicodemus1968]

Originally Posted by Tithesmeister

It seems to me that you are mistaken in your definition of soul. You jump to the conclusion that you, as pastor are responsible for watching for the souls (which you define as eternal salvation) of your saints.

Brother, allow me to share some good news with you. You, as a pastor, are NOT responsible for someone else’s eternal salvation. You can relax about that.

Do you feel better?

Isn’t that a relief?

Let me (or Paul actually) explain.

Philippians 2

[12] Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

Do you see where Paul is telling the saints that they are responsible for their own salvation?

Does it say that your pastor will be responsible for your salvation?

No it doesn’t. And neither should you.

I’m trying to say that you are conflating soul and salvation in Hebrews. You are sure that Hebrews 13 is referring to salvation. It is not IMHO.

Hebrews chapter 13 is referring to their life, not salvation. They that rule over you is referring to magisterial government, not church government.

What do you think?

I have actually known saints who believed that their salvation was the responsibility of their pastor. It is an unbelievable misinterpretation of scripture.

SMH.

[Nicodemus1968]

Originally Posted by hometown guy

So why don’t you enlighten us to whom the verse is referring to?

He believes it’s talking about magistrates. He wants to believe that because one says the Pastor of the local assembly is the authority of that assembly he thinks in his mind that means he has authority over men. I said this already, with some it doesn’t make sense, it’s not the man, it’s the office. It’s sad, when one says your Pastor is responsible for the local assembly and will give an account, people automatically assume that we think he is in charge of their soul. I’ll relate it to this, a owner of a business pays people to do their job, some more some less. The people receive money for their labors yet the owner is not in charge of how they spend it, he’s in charge of making sure that check won’t bounce as it’s processed into their accounts. The Pastor is charged with the word, he is not in charge of their salvation, he is not a lord over them, yet he is called a Shepard, he’s called an angel of the church. The Lord told Peter, feed my sheep. Feed his sheep??? The Pastor has the authority of the word, are there others ministries absolutely, yet your Pastor is there when the other ministers leave. I said consider the source, it’s a shame when someone judges another, and tries to bring down another with something he has no idea about. Jesus said they put burdens on you that they themselves will not bear.

When you witness to an individual, and your giving bible studies that soul (person, human being that will one day die) is dependent on you for the word. You’ll do anything for that individual, you’ll stop your plans to tend to their needs, you’ll invite them for dinner when you may not have enough, you’ll be up at 2-3 in the morning fighting against spirits that come against them. You’ll fast and pray that their eyes be opened, and they receive the Holy Ghost. Once they are birthed, you want to see them succeed, get married have a family. That’s the Pastor, yet with the whole assembly.

[Tithesmeister]

Originally Posted by hometown guy

So I take it you tried to be a preacher somewhere and shot down now your bitter?

No. I have never tried to preach somewhere and been shot down.

Originally Posted by hometown guy

... am I correct????

No. You are not correct. You are, in fact, absolutely wrong.

Originally Posted by hometown guy

I think I am. You sound bitter.

I have no doubt, that you think you are correct. That part is pretty obvious.

Maybe, instead of trying to be a psychoanalyst, you should try to apply scripture to the subject at hand. Just because the scripture doesn’t support your position, doesn’t mean I am bitter.

[Tithesmeister]

Originally Posted by Nicodemus1968

SMH.

If you can’t support your doctrine with scripture, just shake your head. That’ll probably help.

[Tithesmeister]

Originally Posted by Nicodemus1968

Hebrews 13:7
Remember them which have the rule over you, who have spoken unto you the word of God: whose faith follow, considering the end of their conversation.


Who is this talking about?

Hebrews 13:17
Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you.

Watch:
Ultimately from G1 (as negative particle) and G5258; to be sleepless that is keep awake: - watch.

I believe these verses are talking the Pastor, overseer of the flock, Angel of the church. He will be required to give an account for your soul. If your Pastor is one to just give wisdom, and or advice thats not a Pastor. I have friends that can do that!

In the two verses Brother Nicodemus quoted above, in red, there are two key phrases. One is that there are rulers mentioned. Nicodemus believes this is referring to pastors. I don’t believe it is. So, he and Hometown Guy have decided that I am bitter. It can’t possibly be that I am rightly dividing the word, and they are not, because they are pastors or preachers. So let’s parse some words.

First let’s consider who this letter is written to. The title gives us a clue. Hebrews. This letter is written to the Jews. It wasn’t written to the Gentiles. It is important to keep this in mind.

Remember them and obey them that rule over you. Rule over who? Rule over the Jews. Brother Nicodemus thinks it is the pastor. However, the problem with this theory is that it doesn’t SAY pastor. So it bears the question; Who ruled the Jews?

Allow me. . .

John.3

[1] There was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews:

Yes. Nicodemus (not to be the confused with the man who posts on AFF) the one who came to Jesus by night, was a ruler of the Jews. So Hebrews 13:17 could be talking about Nicodemus, and others like him, whom the Bible clearly says are the rulers of the Jews. It was the rulers of the Jews that rejected Jesus as the Messiah and had him crucified. Now Nicodemus was obviously not a pastor. He was not a Christian at this point. But, he WAS a ruler of the Jews, and as such he was to be obeyed.

[Ehud]

Originally Posted by Tithesmeister

...

Now Nicodemus was obviously not a pastor. He was not a Christian at this point. But, he WAS a ruler of the Jews, and as such he was to be obeyed.

Am I correct in understanding you to be saying that those like Nicodemus -- by your admission non-Christians -- are the ones being referred to as those whose faith we should follow?