The Mother Harlot

[Hesetmefree238]

Originally Posted by stmatthew

Sis Alvear,

That was my initial thought. The world (carnal) system is what we are to "come out of and be separated from". The Aposotlic Church is the only "system" that bows to God. ALL other religions and non-religions bow to the system of this world.

I think you are on the right track. I think Babylon mother of harlots has much
more to do with a system that is anti-God, anti-Christ, much more than
a physical earthly city or kingdom.

The book of Revelation is not calling into account ancient history. It seems that the preterist are hung up on ancient history while totally discrediting the message found in the N.T. to the NEW TESTAMENT church.

It seems that they are hung up on old ancient Jerusalem that was already cut off, rejected and no longer part of God's plan at the time of the writings of the NEW TESTAMENT to the NEW TESTAMENT church.

The message of Revelation was to the New Testament church of all ages, including the N.T. church of the 21st century. Otherwise, let us just tear out the part that is no longer addresses our need today. But they want to make it just a history account. How awful!

The book of Revelation was written to the seven churches of Asia, being the whole of all N.T. Churches in the complex. Whatever church you are a part of today, you may find the message of Jesus to your church within those messages. Most are called on to repent. Everything in revelation from there on is a result or consequence of what is done with the message to the church. To repent or not to repent is the question. Consequences and/or rewards are noted depending on reception of the message of Jesus to his church.

The matter of O.T. prophets mixed in are a ruse to divert from the message that God would have have us to hear concerning his church. N.T. church...not what is about something already dead.

[TK Burk]

Originally Posted by Brother Strange

The message of Revelation was to the New Testament church of all ages, including the N.T. church of the 21st century. Otherwise, let us just tear out the part that is no longer addresses our need today. But they want to make it just a history account. How awful!

With your words in mind, what about Jesus' birth? Is it now ancient prophecy that has no meaning today? What about Jesus' crucifixion? Is it still to come or already fulfilled? If it is now history, does it have anything to do with us today? I could go on and on, but Paul summed up such issues when he wrote: "For whatsoever things were written aforetime were written for our learning, that we through patience and comfort of the Scriptures might have hope" (Romans 15:4).

Brother Strange, you know that fulfilled prophecy authenticates Truth. This is what the New Testament is filled with when confirming the validity of Jesus being the true Messiah. How would these type fulfillments be any different than what is being written here about the book of Revelation?

[Steve Epley]

Originally Posted by Lost and Found

With your words in mind, what about Jesus' birth? Is it now ancient prophecy that has no meaning today? What about Jesus' crucifixion? Is it still to come or already fulfilled? If it is now history, does it have anything to do with us today? I could go on and on, but Paul summed up such issues when he wrote: "For whatsoever things were written aforetime were written for our learning, that we through patience and comfort of the Scriptures might have hope" (Romans 15:4).

Brother Strange, you know that fulfilled prophecy authenticates Truth. This is what the New Testament is filled with when confirming the validity of Jesus being the true Messiah. How would these type fulfillments be any different than what is being written here about the book of Revelation?

What Elder Strange is saying prophecy is NOT a backward look(unless specificly named) but a FORWARD look. The prophets you mentioned were killed in the OT. These prophets are NT prophets and saints.

[TK Burk]

Originally Posted by Steve Epley

What Elder Strange is saying prophecy is NOT a backward look(unless specificly named) but a FORWARD look. The prophets you mentioned were killed in the OT. These prophets are NT prophets and saints.

Jesus was an Old Testament prophet?

[QUOTE=Lost and Found;214190]With your words in mind, what about Jesus' birth? Is it now ancient prophecy that has no meaning today? What about Jesus' crucifixion? Is it still to come or already fulfilled? If it is now history, does it have anything to do with us today? I could go on and on, but Paul summed up such issues when he wrote: "For whatsoever things were written aforetime were written for our learning, that we through patience and comfort of the Scriptures might have hope" (Romans 15:4).

Notice the word, "aforetime."

What WAS written AFORETIME was indeed for our learning. Those things written under the law and before, were written long before Revelation was written. Indeed those O.T. scriptures was a school master that led us to Christ. Those scriptures dealt with a natural people in a natural land, with natural laws written on natural stone spoken to natural ears...all natural. Those things were ensamples:

1Cr 10:3 And did all eat the same spiritual meat;


1Cr 10:4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.


1Cr 10:5 But with many of them God was not well pleased: for they were overthrown in the wilderness.


1Cr 10:6 Now these things were our examples, to the intent we should not lust after evil things, as they also lusted.


1Cr 10:7 Neither be ye idolaters, as [were] some of them; as it is written, The people sat down to eat and drink, and rose up to play.


1Cr 10:8 Neither let us commit fornication, as some of them committed, and fell in one day three and twenty thousand.


1Cr 10:9 Neither let us tempt Christ, as some of them also tempted, and were destroyed of serpents.


1Cr 10:10 Neither murmur ye, as some of them also murmured, and were destroyed of the destroyer.


1Cr 10:11 Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.

Brother Strange, you know that fulfilled prophecy authenticates Truth. This is what the New Testament is filled with when confirming the validity of Jesus being the true Messiah. How would these type fulfillments be any different than what is being written here about the book of Revelation?

The birth of Jesus is indeed the fulfillment of prophecy.

Yet, the Word of Prophecy, like all of the remaining Word of God must be rightly divided...laying what is natural along with what is natural and spiritual along what is spiritual. Rightly dividing the Word of truth is more than assuming that Revelation is about old Jerusalem simply because Jesus spoke concerning prophets in the gospels.

[TK Burk]

I am sorry you could not see what Paul is saying in Romans 15. He is simply showing how fulfillments are positively used in the Church. Say it anyway you wish, but THAT is what he means.

Originally Posted by Brother Strange

The birth of Jesus is indeed the fulfillment of prophecy.

Yet, the Word of Prophecy, like all of the remaining Word of God must be rightly divided...laying what is natural along with what is natural and spiritual along what is spiritual. Rightly dividing the Word of truth is more than assuming that Revelation is about old Jerusalem simply because Jesus spoke concerning prophets in the gospels.

So with what you said earlier in mind; since these New Testament fulfillments of Jesus are now past, how do these still give the church hope? Of course I know that His birth and crucifixion gives us daily hope. But you indicated that prophecies that are past are not useful to the Church today. So how are Jesus’ fulfillments any different than what is being said about Revelation?

Originally Posted by Lost and Found

I am sorry you could not see what Paul is saying in Romans 15. He is simply showing how fulfillments are positively used in the Church. Say it anyway you wish, but THAT is what he means.



So with what you said earlier in mind; since these New Testament fulfillments of Jesus are now past, how do these still give the church hope? Of course I know that His birth and crucifixion gives us daily hope. But you indicated that prophecies that are past are not useful to the Church today. So how are Jesus’ fulfillments any different than what is being said about Revelation?

Where is there a future prophecy or the fulfillment of a future prophecy in Revelation, other than what I stated earlier in regards to repentance in the church?

[Steve Epley]

Originally Posted by Brother Strange

The book of Revelation is not calling into account ancient history. It seems that the preterist are hung up on ancient history while totally discrediting the message found in the N.T. to the NEW TESTAMENT church.

It seems that they are hung up on old ancient Jerusalem that was already cut off, rejected and no longer part of God's plan at the time of the writings of the NEW TESTAMENT to the NEW TESTAMENT church.

The message of Revelation was to the New Testament church of all ages, including the N.T. church of the 21st century. Otherwise, let us just tear out the part that is no longer addresses our need today. But they want to make it just a history account. How awful!

The book of Revelation was written to the seven churches of Asia, being the whole of all N.T. Churches in the complex. Whatever church you are a part of today, you may find the message of Jesus to your church within those messages. Most are called on to repent. Everything in revelation from there on is a result or consequence of what is done with the message to the church. To repent or not to repent is the question. Consequences and/or rewards are noted depending on reception of the message of Jesus to his church.

The matter of O.T. prophets mixed in are a ruse to divert from the message that God would have have us to hear concerning his church. N.T. church...not what is about something already dead.

This is so.

[Pressing-On]

Originally Posted by Brother Strange

The book of Revelation is not calling into account ancient history. It seems that the preterist are hung up on ancient history while totally discrediting the message found in the N.T. to the NEW TESTAMENT church.

It seems that they are hung up on old ancient Jerusalem that was already cut off, rejected and no longer part of God's plan at the time of the writings of the NEW TESTAMENT to the NEW TESTAMENT church.

The message of Revelation was to the New Testament church of all ages, including the N.T. church of the 21st century. Otherwise, let us just tear out the part that is no longer addresses our need today. But they want to make it just a history account. How awful!

The book of Revelation was written to the seven churches of Asia, being the whole of all N.T. Churches in the complex. Whatever church you are a part of today, you may find the message of Jesus to your church within those messages. Most are called on to repent. Everything in revelation from there on is a result or consequence of what is done with the message to the church. To repent or not to repent is the question. Consequences and/or rewards are noted depending on reception of the message of Jesus to his church.

The matter of O.T. prophets mixed in are a ruse to divert from the message that God would have have us to hear concerning his church. N.T. church...not what is about something already dead.

Brother Strange,
It is very disconcerting to me that when we pose questions about Revelation we are tagged as Preterist.

Why?

Digging puts out a couple of scripture references on who is desolate and who killed the prophets, which is also gone over in the same manner in Revelation and now he's Preterist?

I'm Preterist?

Perhaps I'm misunderstanding what you are actually implying or saying?