Doctrinal Question - Someone Please Take a Shot at This.

[SDG]

Originally Posted by Aquila

If remission (forgiveness of sins) doesn't take place until water baptism...how did Cornelius' household, me, and countless others receive the Holy Ghost before our sins were forgiven???

Perhaps someone should have spoke up and said, "Now God, these guys are not forgiven until I dunk 'em."

They received it on credit, Aquila.

[mizpeh]

Quote:
Originally Posted by mizpeh
Here is Bro Elpey's list I copied to my harddrive from the GNC awhile ago.

More on “Eis” in Acts 2:38 (GNC)

Nothing in the NT speaks of the blood 'being applied" the blood was shed at Calvary and through faith in the shed blood I recieve:
1. Forgiveness of sins at repentance
2. Remission of sins at baptism
3. The life of the the Blood in th baptism of the Holy Ghost.
In the Tabernacle the "WALK" that began at the brazen altar had blood sprinkled on every piece of furniture thus in every aspect of our 'walk' the priest came in contact with that which was sanctified by the blood. So I concur with your thoughts.
Faith in his blood procurs each and every aspect of our salvation WHEN we BY faith OBEY His word.

Translations that for the word "UNTO" for the word "eis" in Acts 2:38:
Amercian Standard version
English Revised version(1881) Johnannes Lauritzen Translation
American Bible Union NT Modern King James Version (Green)
E.e. Cunnington Translation The Living Scriptures (Green)
George Swann Translation A. S. Worrell Translations
Modern Reader's Bible(Monton) Westministers(Cuthbert-Lattery)
Numeric New Testament(Panin) W. B. Godbey Translation

I found on paper the article I told you of this woman sent Acts 2:38 to these noted college professors asking them if "eis" could mean 'because of" in the passage.
Here are the replies:
1.Frederick M. Combellack, University of Oregon
"The Greek proposition "eis" is NOT used to express cause. One of it's common uses is to express purpose. That is the usage illustrated in the passage you quote from Acts 2:38. Peter means "Let each of you be baptized in the Name of Jesus Christ FOR THE PRUPOSE of the remission of yours sins."
2. J.B. McDiarmid, Executive Officier, University of Washington, Department of Classics, Seattle,
"Thank you for your letter of November 4, I think that "eis" NEVER means
"because of" in the sense "as the result of." It may mean "because of" in the sense of "with a veiw to." as apparently it does in this passage. That it may express the end either literal or figurative TOWARD which the action tends. In this passage the remission of sins is the END of the act of baptism."
3. Robert B. Cross, Department of Greek and Latin, University of Southern California, Los Angeles, Ca.
"As far as I am able to determine "eis" in the New Testament at any rate can ONLY be translated by such a phrase as "for the purpose of" in order to accomplish and the like. It could be translated "because of" in the sense of "for the purpose of" or "for the cause of" -which means exactly the same thing. It could NEVER mean "because of" in the sense of "on account of."
MORE TO COME!
4. John L. Heller, Professor of the Classics, University of Illinois,"I do NOT believe that "eis" over means "because of" and certainly NOT in the passage you quote: "Peter said unto them Repent and be baptized, each of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the sake of forgiveness of your sins" Here "eis" is certainly NOT causal but final, meaning "for the purpose of" in order to recieve."
5. John V. A. Fine, Department of Classics, Princeton University, Princeton NJ.
" To the best of my knowledge "eis" CANNOT mean "because of". It does not express cause but frequently expressed purpose. Acts 2:38 I shall translate(literally) as follows: "And Peter said unto them Repent and let each of you be baptized in the Name of Jesus Christ for the remission of your sins."
6. Warren E. Lake, Professor of Greek Language and Literature, Dept. of Greek, University of Michigan,
" The proposition "eis" can never have the force of 'because of' at any period of the langauge. Its primary meaning is ALWAYS "to" into" in the NT and Modern Greek "in". It is used in thie passage in the metaphorical sense of "limit of motion" , i.e. "be bapitized unto or with a view to" remission of sins . "This se is fairly frequent in NT particularly with the articular infinitive. Cf. Rom.3:25, Mt.20:19, Rom.1:11, 1Cor. 9:28 etc.
7. E. Bundy, Asst. Prof. of Classics, University of Berkley, Berkley, Ca.
"The preposition denotes 'purpose' "For the remittance of your sins" or with a veiw to the remitt etc. or "in order to(gain) remittance" or some such expression. Peter said unto them Repent and be baptized each of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remittance of your sins.." Eis" could ONLY be translated because of means purpose.
8. Henry B. Dewing, Bowdoin College and President of Athens College, Athens Greece,
" I should say that "eis" indicates not a result or consequence but rather END or design. I should translate "Let everyone of you baptized (the attainment of) forgiveness of sins..." The meaning 'because of" is UTTERLY OUT OF THE QUESTION.(emphasis mine) Professor of Athen's College mind you.
9. Henry Darling Brackett, Professor of Greek, Clark College
"In order to" but "for the purpose of" is better, because the fundamental universal meaning of "eis" is "toward" into" in the direction of" and NOT "out of' "arising from" or "because of".
10. Frank Hugh Foster, Instructor of New Testament Greek, Oberlin Graduate School of Theology
"The meaning of "eis" may be either of two things, either to indicate the purpose..or to indicate the result. In the first place it would be translated "in order to gain" in the second with the result of, the preposition "eis"
NEVER means because of.
11. E.A. Nida, member of Editorial board of "The Bible Translator." Vol. 3, no. 3, July 1952
"Repent and be baptized" and "sins are forgiven." Our problem at this point is to determine the relationship of these two expressions as we find it indicated in the Greek preposition "eis" usually translated "into" but having a variety of meanings including "unto" "for" "in" regards to." It is not easy to determine the precise relationships between these processes. We may regard the Greek "eis" as resultive,i.e.-the "baptism of repentance"results in forgiveness of sins. However "eis" could also designate the purpose of the baptism....In English we can use the ambiguous conjunctive phrase "so that" and translate the portion of the verse as "repent and be baptized so that their sins may be forgiven." The use of "so that...may" still leabes so ambiguity, as between purpose and result, but the principle emphasis is upon purpose.
12. Professor Flagg, Cornell University,"In respect to your inquiry about the force of the preposition "eis" in the passage of the NT to which you refer(Acts2:38), I should say that it denoted intent or purpose with a veiw to, much as if it has been written, "so as to obtain the remission of sins."

13. J. H. Huddleston, Professor of Greek, University of Maine
"Peter spoke to them "repent and let each one of you be baptized in the Name of Jesus Christ to the end (that there may be) delivery from your sins."EIS" CANNOT mean 'because of' but as often in the NT "for the purpose of."
14. Edgar J. Goodspeed, Professor of Bibilcal & Patristic Greek, University of Chicago,
Peter said unto them you must repent and everyone of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ, in order to have your sins forgiven." it NEVER means "because of.'
15. Donald L. Wise, Moody Bible Institute,
We are inclined to agree with you that the evidence of its usage and interpetation in context indicate that the proposition(Eis in Acts 2:38) is used to indicate purpose. (From MOODY of all things!!!!!!!!!!! Their scholarship outweighed their theology.)
16. Clinton W. Keys, Assistant Professor of Greek and Latin, Columbia University, New York City,
"Change your attitudes and let each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the removal of your sins" "Eis" takes the accusative "aphesin." I don't see that it can mean anything but "for" "for the purpose of."
17. Canon Emile Chartier, Vuce Rector, Montreal University,
"But there is one meaning it (eis) never bears, not more in Biblical Greek than in Classical, and that is the causal(because of) He paraphrases-if you are sorry of your sins and you undergo baptism, your sins will be forgiven......"
How about it folks????????????????? Thus saith the Greek professors that speak and teach the language?
In the OT men had forgiveness of sins but sins were NEVER taken away! IN the NT remission of sins took place at Calvary through his blood. He was the Lamb that took away the sin of the world. In baptism we experience this benefit of the blood that was not available in the OT. NO sin in the NT is remitted outside of baptism ONLY in baptism is the promise that faith will remit past sins of the repented. While forgiveness and remission comes from the same word it is NOT accomplished in the same act. Forgiveness ALONE will not save in the NT church. The record has to be purged or cleared and only the blood accomplishes that in the act of baptism. Our faith in his blood frees-delivers-liberates-sends away-clears our sins in baptism in Jesus Name.
Brother Elpey

Again read it and weep.

[Steve Epley]

Originally Posted by Praxeas

"for" is a perfectly grammatical translation and that is coming from people that don't believe baptism is essential.

Dan you say most translators support "with a view towards"...can you prove that?

NOPE he can't but if he could it would NOT prove his Baptist theory. He needs because of but he is too smart to use it because he has been backed down on that absurdity so he has jumped to this that does not help him either.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Steve Epley

John and Matthew are NOT the same setting.

No, I never said it was the same setting. I clearly stated that in John 20 Jesus was referencing what he had taught them earlier as recorded in Matthew 18. Please re-read what I had written.

[Steve Epley]

Originally Posted by mizpeh

Again read it and weep.

Thank you and they are yet weeping.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Daniel Alicea

They received it on credit, Aquila.

Scripture please?

Do you know how rediculous that sounds? I received the Holy Ghost on "credit". C'mon.

[mizpeh]

Originally Posted by Aquila

If remission (forgiveness of sins) doesn't take place until water baptism...how did Cornelius' household, me, and countless others receive the Holy Ghost before our sins were forgiven???

Perhaps someone should have spoke up and said, "Now God, these guys are not forgiven until I dunk 'em."

What happens when a Spirit filled believer sins? By your same logic how can a HOLY Spirit remain in an unholy vessel?

[mizpeh]

Originally Posted by Steve Epley

Thank you and they are yet weeping.

http://www.apostolicfriendsforum.com...&postcount=515

[SDG]

Originally Posted by Steve Epley

NOPE he can't but if he could it would NOT prove his Baptist theory. He needs because of but he is too smart to use it because he has been backed down on that absurdity so he has jumped to this that does not help him either.

17 professors agreed ... you've got us now .... how many are Catholic???? lol.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by mizpeh

What happens when a Spirit filled believer sins? By your same logic how can a HOLY Spirit remain in an unholy vessel?

The Holy Ghost will work with a sinner for a while...but he will depart if they continue in sin. However, it should be noted the blood is alread active in the believer's life at this point. Yet if initially sins are not forgiven until baptism...how did I receive the Holy Ghost before my sins were forgiven? Why was I led in prayer to praise God and thank him for forgiving my sin? Why was I lighter than air and cleansed after speaking in tongues and weeping my heart out on the altar?

It just doesn't make sense.