Doctrinal Question - Someone Please Take a Shot at This.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Steve Epley

Aquilla not to be unkind but most of the injured on here have injured themselves. Some may have had pastors that wounded them I don't know but from what I have seen posted here they were well capable of doing some wounding on their own. I have enjoyed the Biblical discussions here they have been hot and heavy at times. But there has been this constant decline in respect for all that is counted Holy in the Apostolic church. And I find myself getting too heated NOT at the discussions but the manner. I have prayed for most of these folks during their needs and trials. But I think maybe it is time to say goodbye? I will think about this the next few days.
Everyone have a nice a nice holiday that your conscience will allow you to have.

I wont deny that some, if not many, have perhaps wounded themselves. However, I feel it's dangerous to pretend that I can decern between those who have been hurt and those who have hurt themselvs 100% of the time...especially without even knowing them personally. So yes, I sometimes that someone is hurting...it matters not to me who's to blame because it all comes down to sin. Either their own or an abusive pastor or spiritual leader's. I'm a healer, not a judge.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Steve Epley

Bro. Price I recommend you not spend alot of time on here. With your problems this is NOT a good place for you. You need to find a solid Apostolic church and submit yourself. I believe you have a good heart this is not a place for you. Please do not be insulted or offended. There is no telling where you will end up doctrinally and spiritually since you are so easily influenced. Please pray about this advise.

Here's a good example of wounding. You mean well...but what you are saying can hurt because it's being said openly. This may have been best said in private message so as to not place Bro. Price on the defensive.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Joelel

When we lead someone to the water to be baptized their sins are being remitted in the water. John20:23: Whosoever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whosoever sins ye retain, they are retained

Acts2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ FOR THE REMISSION of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. 2:39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the LORD our God shall call

All you're doing is connecting two verses based on the translation of a specific word. You're ignoring context. And if sins are remitted in the water how do so many, including myself, have our sins forgiven at repentance and receive the Holy Ghost prior to baptism?

[Brother Price]

Originally Posted by Aquila

Here's a good example of wounding. You mean well...but what you are saying can hurt because it's being said openly. This may have been best said in private message so as to not place Bro. Price on the defensive.

Aquila, when it comes to hurting, I have received and given. Bro. Epley is sharing concern for me because he believes this forum is swaying me in my moment of weakness. The fact is, I had been dealing with the 1 vs. 3 step issue for a long time, and what Bro. Epley said gave me the light bulb effect.

If our beliefs cannot hold up to criticism, then we must reexamine our beliefs.

And, personally, I am not going to go on the defensive as I once did. Have too many other problems to make my BP go up over what someone says.

[Brother Price]

Originally Posted by Aquila

All you're doing is connecting two verses based on the translation of a specific word. You're ignoring context. And if sins are remitted in the water how do so many, including myself, have our sins forgiven at repentance and receive the Holy Ghost prior to baptism?

That is the $64,000 question as well, Aquila.

Do you not know that you are God's temple and that God's Spirit dwells in you? If anyone destroys God's temple, God will destroy him. For God's temple is holy, and you are that temple. {1Corinthians 3:16-17 ESV}

If the vessel is clean, God shall dwell therein. Many times, this is shown throughout the Acts, as when the Spirit baptizes a soul after repentance, and after those events, they are baptized in water. One must repent and confess their sins. The scriptures declare that if we repent and confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

[mizpeh]

Originally Posted by Aquila

Why is it when asked simple, real life questions, and confronted with other possibilities so many of these guys crumble and split? Running isn't an answer. No one here has questoined the necessity of repentance, water baptism in Jesus name, or the infilling of the Holy Ghost in the believer's full salvation experience.

What we are asking is a theological question...when are sins forgiven? You claimed it was at baptism. I'm just asking you to give rock solid evidence for your statement in light of the fact that so many of us received the Holy Ghost well before we were baptized. Remember...PCIers are saved just as you are. We're just believing that the process may be different. The Holy Ghost experience we had even testifies to a different process.

I may have missed it but can you give me rock solid evidence that your sins are forgiven at repentance, not just a feeling, but scriptures?

[Brother Price]

If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. {1 John 1:9 ESV}

Repent therefore, and turn again, that your sins may be blotted out, that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord, and that he may send the Christ appointed for you, Jesus, whom heaven must receive until the time for restoring all the things about which God spoke by the mouth of his holy prophets long ago. {Acts 3:19-21 ESV}

You have neither part nor lot in this matter, for your heart is not right before God. Repent, therefore, of this wickedness of yours, and pray to the Lord that, if possible, the intent of your heart may be forgiven you. For I see that you are in the gall of bitterness and in the bond of iniquity." {Acts 8:21-23 ESV}

For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. {Ephesians 2:8-9 ESV}

The times of ignorance God overlooked, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent, because he has fixed a day on which he will judge the world in righteousness by a man whom he has appointed; and of this he has given assurance to all by raising him from the dead." {Acts 17:30-31 ESV}

[mizpeh]

Originally Posted by Brother Price

If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. {1 John 1:9 ESV}

Context is important. This verse is written to Christians, even those who have been born again and are walking in the light

Repent therefore, and turn again, that your sins may be blotted out, that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord, and that he may send the Christ appointed for you, Jesus, whom heaven must receive until the time for restoring all the things about which God spoke by the mouth of his holy prophets long ago. {Acts 3:19-21 ESV}

This verse can be explained a couple of ways because I can bend it to my POV as well because it doesn't specifically say that when you repent your sins are blotted out. This verse has to agree with all the verses that teach remission of sins.

You have neither part nor lot in this matter, for your heart is not right before God. Repent, therefore, of this wickedness of yours, and pray to the Lord that, if possible, the intent of your heart may be forgiven you. For I see that you are in the gall of bitterness and in the bond of iniquity." {Acts 8:21-23 ESV}

Simon was already baptized in Jesus name, therefore he didn't have to be rebaptized for the remission of sins but repent and confess this sin as in 1John 1:7

For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. {Ephesians 2:8-9 ESV}

Grace and faith are the means by which we are saved. Are we forgiven at belief?

The times of ignorance God overlooked, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent, because he has fixed a day on which he will judge the world in righteousness by a man whom he has appointed; and of this he has given assurance to all by raising him from the dead." {Acts 17:30-31 ESV}

This verse doesn't address remission of sins.

You all have been around this mulberry bush so many times that the poor little bush is standing alone atop a mountain taller than everest and you all keep getting lower with every pass!

[nahkoe]

Originally Posted by philjones

You all have been around this mulberry bush so many times that the poor little bush is standing alone atop a mountain taller than everest and you all keep getting lower with every pass!

That's just funny.