Romans 10:9

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by mizpeh

I already have obeyed what I understand.

my point is, is it necessary to understand the whys and whats if you know it is commanded anyways, in order to just obey God?

[mizpeh]

Originally Posted by Praxeas

my point is, is it necessary to understand the whys and whats if you know it is commanded anyways, in order to just obey God?

no

[augustianian]

To bishoph

In the copied portion of the post, Augustianian stated that "if a person repents, that in and of itself IS evidence of the infilling of the Holy Spirit." This is in direct opposition to what is found in Acts 8 12-17

Why?? It doesn't even mention an "infilling" at all. The Holy Spirit could have "filled" them without "fallen" on them, right??

Notice they had received the word and were believers, according to your theology, when they repented/believed they were filled with the Holy Spirit. This is simply not supported by scripture.

Like I've already said...Acts 8 doesn't even mention a "filling" just a "fallen". So my contention remains intact.

Secondly your assertion that Paul's instruction concerning gifts, includes a statement that there are believers who do not speak with tongues is a misstatement at best.

My assertion was, and remains, that that is Paul's statement. I would have never made the assertion if he had not made the statement.

Paul was clearly teaching about and setting in order the operation of the gifts, one of which was tongues. Thus, Paul's question, do all speak with tongues, is not an affirmation that some did not speak with tongues, but rather that all do not have the "gift" of tongues.

And if all do not have the gift of tongues...all do NOT speak in tongues.

(Notice in the same verse he addresses interpretation of tongues which is another "gift.")

Irrelevant.

However, one cannot have nor operate in one of the "gifts" of the spirit unless he/she has received the Spirit from which the gifts emanate.

So what you're saying is...a person cannot NOT speak in tongues unless he does. Huh???

Further clarity is derived when we look at the Greek rendering of the word gift used in Acts 2:38, for example, which is dorea, and simply means a free gratis gift. Whereas the word used in 1 Corinthians is Charisma and is defined as gifts denoting extraordinary powers, or abilities.

Two authors two different words to describe two different circumstances for two different purposes. No problem. From this you cannot differentiate between "initial evidence of tongues" in Acts 2 and the "gift of tongues" in I Corinthians. It's the same thing. And not every believer is given that gift.

I look forward to further discussion.

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Me too.
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[Adino]

Originally Posted by Praxeas

In other words, you agree with me.....

LOL... if you were meaning what I just said, then yes.

[Joelel]

Originally Posted by J-Roc

Here's a powerful scripture for ya...


If you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is by believing in your heart that you are made right with God, and it is by confessing with your mouth that you are saved. (Romans 10:9-10)

That is not a good translation,here is the script word for word.

9 oti <3754> {THAT} ean <1437> {IF} omologhshV <3670> (5661) {THOU CONFESS} en <1722> {WITH} tw <3588> {THY} stomati <4750> sou <4675> {MOUTH [THE]} kurion <2962> {LORD} ihsoun <2424> {JESUS,} kai <2532> {AND} pisteushV <4100> (5661) {BELIEVE} en <1722> {IN} th <3588> {THY} kardia <2588> sou <4675> {HEART} oti <3754> o <3588> {THAT} qeoV <2316> {GOD} auton <846> {HIM} hgeiren <1453> (5656) {RAISED} ek <1537> {FROM AMONG [THE]} nekrwn <3498> {DEAD,} swqhsh <4982> (5701) {THOU SHALT BE SAVED.} 10 kardia <2588> {WITH [THE] HEART} gar <1063> {FOR} pisteuetai <4100> (5743) {IS BELIEF} eiV <1519> {TO} dikaiosunhn <1343> {RIGHTEOUSNESS;} stomati <4750> {AND WITH [THE]} de <1161> {MOUTH} omologeitai <3670> (5743) {IS CONFESSION} eiV <1519> {TO} swthrian <4991> {SALVATION.}

My question is,It says thou shall be saved,thou shall be saved when ? Are there more things we must do before we are saved ? Yes. We are saved by continuing in all doctrine.1 Tim.004:016Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; (teachings,word,Truth) continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee.

[Adino]

Originally Posted by RevDWW

What about obedience? Doesn't it play a part in the plan of salvation?

Only the obedience of faith. A heart of faith is, in and of itself, obedience. He that believes has life (John 3:6, 15-16, 36; 5:24; 6:40,47; 11:25,26).

[Adino]

Bumping this for Mizpeh...

Originally Posted by Adino

You mentioned a thanks for 1Peter 3:21. Am I to understand you now realize sin remission must come before baptism? If baptism is "the response of a good conscience toward God" it follows that the "good conscience" must first exist in order to engender the response of baptism. The only way a person can have a good conscience toward God is to realize his sins no longer stand between him and God, so sin remission must take place prior to baptism.

[Adino]

Mizpeh, here are a few more thoughts which might help you out in your study.

John said of Christ, "Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world."

All our sins were reckoned to Christ on Calvary.

Since the sins reckoned to Christ did not keep him in the grave, then they must have been removed.

Take notice and understand: The resurrection was a declaration that all sin reckoned to Christ had been forgiven, else he would not have been raised because the wage of sin is death. Our sin, reckoned to Christ, had to be forgiven in order for him to be raised. If the sins of the world were not taken away (removed/remitted/forgiven) at the Cross, then Christ would not have been raised.

The Good News is that our sin has been forgiven. The Gospel is the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ. Christ's resurrection declares our freedom from sin and that we too will be resurrected unto eternal life.

The heart is purified by faith. The heart of a person becomes purified when he recognizes he has been made free from sin and reconciled to God by Christ's death nearly 2000 years ago at Calvary. The heart is purified upon acceptance of this historical fact; when it receives the reality of the forgiveness which took place on the Cross.

The conscience is made good toward God upon acceptance of the Good News that our sin, which was reckoned to Christ, has been remitted through Christ's death on the Cross. The person who has come to this realization and thus rests in the finished work of the Cross can draw near unto God "with a true heart in full assurance of faith" having his heart "sprinkled (cleansed) from an evil conscience."

Water baptism is the response of the man who possesses this "good conscience toward God." It is the response of the man whose heart has been purified by faith in the reality of a sin remission which took place on the Cross. Sin remission does not take place in the waters of baptism. Sin remission took place on the Cross.

[pelathais]

Originally Posted by Joelel

That is not a good translation,here is the script word for word.

9 oti <3754> {THAT} ean <1437> {IF} omologhshV <3670> (5661) {THOU CONFESS} en <1722> {WITH} tw <3588> {THY} stomati <4750> sou <4675> {MOUTH [THE]} kurion <2962> {LORD} ihsoun <2424> {JESUS,} kai <2532> {AND} pisteushV <4100> (5661) {BELIEVE} en <1722> {IN} th <3588> {THY} kardia <2588> sou <4675> {HEART} oti <3754> o <3588> {THAT} qeoV <2316> {GOD} auton <846> {HIM} hgeiren <1453> (5656) {RAISED} ek <1537> {FROM AMONG [THE]} nekrwn <3498> {DEAD,} swqhsh <4982> (5701) {THOU SHALT BE SAVED.} 10 kardia <2588> {WITH [THE] HEART} gar <1063> {FOR} pisteuetai <4100> (5743) {IS BELIEF} eiV <1519> {TO} dikaiosunhn <1343> {RIGHTEOUSNESS;} stomati <4750> {AND WITH [THE]} de <1161> {MOUTH} omologeitai <3670> (5743) {IS CONFESSION} eiV <1519> {TO} swthrian <4991> {SALVATION.}

Joelel, if I may ask without creating offense, what was your point in posting the above "script." There is an English translation buried in there but it is obscured by the Strong's numbering and the awful Greek transliteration. It would have been better to post a Greek only text - enough of us can read Greek at least at a primary level - but even that would not help us to understand your point.

You didn't "score" anything here in the debate. You merely hindered us from understanding what you are wanting to say. Whether we all agree with you or not, we do regard you highly enough that we're willing to listen. Help us to listen and to hear your point of view.

[AmazingGrace]

Me thinks Joelel cant answer cuz he is banned