Original Sin/Ancestral Sin

[Steve Epley]

Originally Posted by oracle

Epley, thats not what God said. God did not say from the womb "they became" transgressors. God clearly said "WHEN" He called Israel a transgressor. He said He called Israel a transgressor FROM THE WOMB! Thats before birth before any works were committed. God KNEW that Israel would DEAL VERY TREACHEROUSLY, and in His foreknowledge, He called Israel a transgressor before birth. Thats what God said. Did God tell a lie?

My friend you have taken an allegory and made it a human. And you yet misquote and misapply the passage it's self.

[Adino]

Originally Posted by Steve Epley

I never said any such thing. They get a new body in the resurrection WITHOUT a sin nature.

Ok. You agree that the sin nature will not be in eternity. Why do you feel it will not be in our new body? Why do you think God will not allow it to exist in eternity?

Will you agree because it is at enmity against God, wholly against the nature of God and thus cannot co-exist in eternity without it 1) being fully removed or 2) somehow justified?

[Adino]

Steve or Mizpeh, if the sin nature needs to be eradicated in heaven does it need to be justified on earth?

[Adino]

If it is determined that we are in need of justification of our sinful nature, then my previous post in the "Hybrid" thread stands and should be considered:

Steve, Mizpeh, Dan and all:

Isn't it true that many of those who vehemently fight against the idea of justification by faith ALONE hold to the concept in their own theology?

If the saint who sins is not immediately in a hellbound status, does he not remain in a 'saved condition' by the grace of God ALONE through faith ALONE?

If during the 'window of grace' or 'time of conviction' which immediately follows a sin committed by a saint, that saint is still considered right with God (i.e., still saved), it must be conceded that this position of rightstanding is by God's grace alone through faith alone. It has nothing to do with the believer's actual holiness before God (since the believer is in a state of unconfessed transgression), but with an imputed holiness God gives him regardless of the believer's actual sinful condition.

He is justified by grace ALONE through faith ALONE in Christ ALONE.

Now if the believer is sustained, even for this short period of time, by God's grace alone through faith alone, why is it so difficult to admit God, at all times, maintains the salvation of the believer (who is by nature a sinner and in constant transgression against the Law of God only Christ was able to fulfil) by grace alone through faith alone?

We who are sinners by nature are perpetually justified by faith alone.

In fact, this may be one of the huge problems we have in dealing with the subject of justification and why unity has been so difficult: It is not the mere justification of our sinful deeds which gives us right fellowship with God. It is the justification of our sinful nature. We are justified, not merely of our the sinful deeds, but of our sinful nature. Even if a person could achieve and maintain a lifestyle without sinful deeds to confess, he is still a sinner before God BY NATURE. Since the sinful nature is never eradicated during our Christian journey, we are perpetually in need of God to reckon to us a righteousness up and above any righteous behavior we can perform.

The believer who is perpetually reckoned righteous by God is at the same time a sinner by nature.

"Simul Justus Et Peccator" - At the same time righteous and a sinner.

If our very nature needs justification in order to stand right before God, there is nothing we can do of ourselves to remedy this depravity except place our faith in the finished work of Christ.

We are, therefore, justified by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone.

Once again: In addition of our sinful deeds, do we need to be justified of our sin nature while here on earth?

Yes or no?

[mizpeh]

Adino,

I believe our sinful nature is in our flesh. Our sinful nature cannot be made just, it is what it is. Our regeneration is spiritual, our hearts/minds are cleansed and made new. We still have to struggle with the sinful nature after the new birth til the day we die or translated.

[Steve Epley]

Originally Posted by Adino

Ok. You agree that the sin nature will not be in eternity. Why do you feel it will not be in our new body? Why do you think God will not allow it to exist in eternity?

Will you agree because it is at enmity against God, wholly against the nature of God and thus cannot co-exist in eternity without it 1) being fully removed or 2) somehow justified?

Again my friend you are buidling an argument liken unto how many Angels can balance of the head of a needle. There will be no sin nature to those who enter into life period. In Heaven there will be NO enemies against God.

[Steve Epley]

Originally Posted by Adino

If it is determined that we are in need of justification of our sinful nature, then my previous post in the "Hybrid" thread stands and should be considered:
If our very nature needs justification in order to stand right before God, there is nothing we can do of ourselves to remedy this depravity except place our faith in the finished work of Christ.

We are, therefore, justified by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone.

Once again: In addition of our sinful deeds, do we need to be justified of our sin nature while here on earth?

Yes or no?

You are overlooking we are BORN AGAIN -a new man in Christ Jesus.

[Adino]

Originally Posted by mizpeh

Adino,

I believe our sinful nature is in our flesh. Our sinful nature cannot be made just, it is what it is. Our regeneration is spiritual, our hearts/minds are cleansed and made new. We still have to struggle with the sinful nature after the new birth til the day we die or translated.

Are you saying you believe the reason man sins is physiological?

[Adino]

Originally Posted by Steve Epley

Again my friend you are buidling an argument liken unto how many Angels can balance of the head of a needle. There will be no sin nature to those who enter into life period. In Heaven there will be NO enemies against God.......You are overlooking we are BORN AGAIN -a new man in Christ Jesus.

Just trying to get you to commit to a truth, friend. I agree, there will be no sin nature in heaven.

I'm certainly not overlooking the born again issue. You seem to be overlooking the fact that a man who is born again retains a nature of sin and is justified of that nature by faith alone. He is at the same time righteous and a sinner. He is at the same time righteous and in possession of a nature which needs to be justified. Will you admit to this point?

[Steve Epley]

Originally Posted by Adino

Just trying to get you to commit to a truth, friend. I agree, there will be no sin nature in heaven.

I'm certainly not overlooking the born again issue. You seem to be overlooking the fact that a man who is born again retains a nature of sin and is justified of that nature by faith alone. He is at the same time righteous and a sinner. He is at the same time righteous and in possession of a nature which needs to be justified. Will you admit to this point?

Certainly I still retain my Adamic nature which is prone to sin but that in itself does NOT make me a sinner.Temptation is NOT sin. Sin is an act committed. 1Jn.3:4 I am justifed with my Adamic nature yes. However an infant does NOT have the abillity to CHOOSE that is the crux. Your argument has NO merit give it up. Making a baby a sinner is a tough job I guess?