If Physical Death is Final? - Page 15

crakjak · #**141** 11-17-2008, 11:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mfblume

Incorrect. God decided that MEN WOULD CHOOSE to serve Him or not. And He laid out the cross for all men to be able to be reconciled by their choice. If they chose not, then so be it. Nothing of God's plan failed. Failure is not in the equation at all if the blood COULD reconcile all by the choice of all. The choice of God was to have the blood able to reconcile everyone who willed. And this did not fail. You cannot remove the choice of man in this.

There is no flaw in my logic here.

The only flaw is the elephant in the living room, it means God messed up, (of course He did not), didn't anticipate the fall, Satan outfoxed him (that's impossible). Or else you make a whole bunch of exceptions: mentally retarded, infants, those that never heard, etc, etc, etc.

Just face it Micheal, you cannot get there from here!!

crakjak · #**142** 11-17-2008, 11:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aquila

I'll admit, the doctrine is interesting and I've read quite a bit about about it. But I'm not UR I assure you. If you look at another post of mine you'll see that I clearly stated such...

http://www.apostolicfriendsforum.com...4&postcount=29

I think that UR has some strengths that aren't being properly addressed. Straw men are being setting up and torn down and the doctrine itself isn't being adequately discussed. That's where I come in...I'll force the subject's deeper issues.

Do I wish it were true? Perhaps, what compassionate soul wouldn't love to see all of humanity reconciled to God?

When I was younger I ran with a crowd that was into the occult. One thing about Satanists...they rejoice that Satan wins the majority of the human race. They testify that even the Christian Bible affirms their victory. They don't care that a sliver of mankind is saved. They see that as a slap in God's face and their ultimate joy. The UR doctrine crushes their victory and demands that even they will one day be broken before the savior of all mankind. It's an interesting position.

I believe bstokes was speaking to Antipas?

bkstokes · #**143** 11-18-2008, 07:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by crakjak

The devils, what ever they may truly be, were created by God and for God. Will they be judged, you betcha!

Yes, of course they will be judged. Nevertheless, you are using the scripture to say that EVERTHING in heaven and earth will be reconciled to God. Paul refers to demons (as the principalities of the air). Thus, by your interpretation, they will be judged and then also reconciled to God. You must note that this is a weakness in the UR doctrine.

Truthseeker · #**144** 11-18-2008, 08:08 AM

What does a UR person tell a sinner? You you you better repent or you'll be saved??

Antipas · #**145** 11-18-2008, 08:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Truthseeker

What does a UR person tell a sinner? You you you better repent or you'll be saved??

You're average sinner doesn't believe in Hell bro. What wins a soul is the message of the cross, what God has done for mankind. If someone comes to faith merely to escape Hell...they've missed the point. UR doesn't use Hell as a weapon with which to horrify people into obedience. UR demonstrates how much God loves all mankind and admonishes that all men obey the Gospel in a spirit of loving humility to the God that will reconcile all creation to himself by his cross.

Unto the unrepented, I'd warn that God judges sin now in this life and in the life to come. Sin's penalties are eternal, the unrepentant will never experience the fullness of God's blessings in Heaven. The afterlife isn't all that pleasant for those who die in their sins, there is still weeping and gnashing of teeth, fire, and torments of soul. The rich man was still pleading for relief. However, there will be reconciliation in the dateless ages to come. Hell may not be forever in the UR position...but it will be for ages untold, an eternity, for some.

Antipas · #**146** 11-18-2008, 08:23 AM

Interesting to note...UR teaching appears to fit various descriptions of near death experiences.

Antipas · #**147** 11-18-2008, 08:45 AM

Interesting verse...

"My children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. But if anyone does sin, we have an advocate with the Father; Jesus Christ the Righteous. He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world." (1 John 2:1-2)

crakjak · #**148** 11-18-2008, 08:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bkstokes

Yes, of course they will be judged. Nevertheless, you are using the scripture to say that EVERTHING in heaven and earth will be reconciled to God. Paul refers to demons (as the principalities of the air). Thus, by your interpretation, they will be judged and then also reconciled to God. You must note that this is a weakness in the UR doctrine.

I disagree that this is a weakness. Everything will be redeemed and reconciled to God, the judgment will be eternal in its effect.

Scott Hutchinson · #**149** 11-18-2008, 08:51 AM

If one doesn't believe in Christ they will perish,I understand there are varying views on the word perish,anyways if one perishes how can they be ultimately reconciled to God ?

bkstokes · #**150** 11-18-2008, 08:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by crakjak

I disagree that this is a weakness. Everything will be redeemed and reconciled to God, the judgment will be eternal in its effect.

All the every evasive word with the UR people "eternal". You say here that eternal is not limitless when it comes to judgement, yet it is limitless with its effect. The definitions that you use for your defense contradict themselves.