New Doctrine Emerges: NOT Forgiven at Repentance - Page 31

LUKE2447 · #**301** 01-23-2009, 12:25 PM

Nobody was "born" of the Spirit before Pentecost.

KWSS1976 · #**302** 01-23-2009, 12:28 PM

Noboby had the holyghost/spirit before pentecost????

BobDylan · #**303** 01-23-2009, 12:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LUKE2447

No I didn't and I agree that it does take John 3:5. I believe in 3 steps but to be in right standing of heart is simply faith or "proper response." Right standing of the heart and the righteousness of Christ are two different things. God can declare any "proper response" righteouss as he did in Gen 15:6 etc... but that is not the righteousness of Christ being imputed unto a person. A person must be born of water and of Spirit to enter the kingdom of God. It takes being born again and the life of the Spirit to be considered a complete Christian.

What might have confused you is for some reason I forgot to put a , after No(,) Salvation......

Well, I see what you're saying. I do want to note that I am not necessarily trying to debate, and you bring up some good points. I would like to invesitgate for thoroughly, but time is not permitting at this moment. Thanks for the dialogue. When time permist, I'll more for discussion. Blessings...

LUKE2447 · #**304** 01-23-2009, 12:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KWSS1976

Noboby had the holyghost/spirit before pentecost????

As I believe I have pointed out before and I believe it was to you. (could be wrong) There is a difference in how we relate to God under the New Covenant! The Spirit is internal. God could move on people before but not in the way the New Covenant allows due to the atonement of Christ.

BobDylan · #**305** 01-23-2009, 12:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by deltaguitar

Why would Jesus be preaching something to Nicodemus that couldn't happen to him? Peter didn't preach Baptism and the Holy Ghost was not poured out until later. Just doesn't make sense to preach something that was not available to the person you are preaching to.

I take John 3:5 to mean that every man must be born of the water and the spirit, not just those after Pentecost.

Jesus was teaching to Nicodemus about baptism. If you notice the context, immediately after speaking to Nicodemus, in John 3:20-21, you'll notice that Jesus was baptizing in Salim near Jordan, "for there was much water there"...

What else could Jesus have been talking about when speaking of "being born of WATER, and of the SPIRIT"?

John the Baptist was preaching, telling people to believe on the one who would baptize "with the Holy Ghost and fire"... speaking of Jesus. No, it was not available yet, but it was part of the message Jesus preached, pointing to Pentecost.

KWSS1976 · #**306** 01-23-2009, 12:38 PM

Ok so there must be 2 versions of the holyghost/spirit one version in the old testament and then one in the new testament.

LUKE2447 · #**307** 01-23-2009, 12:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KWSS1976

Ok so there must be 2 versions of the holyghost/spirit one version in the old testament and then one in the new testament.

Please show me such.... Notice, Jesus came to give us the HS and fire. Also the ministry of gifts clearly shows a difference in relationship to God than what the OT saints had experienced.

LUKE2447 · #**308** 01-23-2009, 12:57 PM

THe OT saints where declared righteous by the complete repsonse to the message available to them at the time and that was faith in the future coming of the Messiah and daily seeking and responding to God. They also walked by faith daily seeking God. The only difference now is we receive the fullfillment of the promise which is a different experience in many regards but still the same in the basics. Live by faith!

KWSS1976 · #**309** 01-23-2009, 01:04 PM

So the holyghost Elizabeth had in the book of luke 1:41 is not the same as Acts?

Sam · #**310** 01-23-2009, 01:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KWSS1976

So the holyghost Elizabeth had in the book of luke 1:41 is not the same as Acts?

There is only one God, one Holy Spirit.
God as Holy Spirit is found active way back in Genesis chapter one where He hovered like a dove over the fluid face of the earth, bringing light to the darkness and bringing order out of chaos.
He has worked in and upon and through humans all through the history of man.
Of course, the same Holy Ghost who empowered Elizabeth, Zecharias, John the Baptist, Simeon, and Anna in the NT and the prophets of the Old Testament is the same Holy Ghost who empowers us today. It's just that in the Old Testament the gift of tongues was not manifested and was therefore not associated with experiences of the Holy Spirit.