Monopoly on Apostolic Identity is no more ....

[deltaguitar]

Originally Posted by mizpeh

DG, if you become a Calvinist, I will have to hurt you!!!

can I be a partialCalvinist? I am out of here. Talk with you guys tomorrow.

[pelathais]

Originally Posted by edjen01

friend i do not think that your pain is not great...or that you hurt is not real...and I will pray that God keeps you in his grace.

organizations that are ran by human men will ALWAYS have deception, pride, and personal motives to deal with. its the fleas that come with the dog.

i do pray that God will grant you His grace to always know that if you served with a pure heart...you were serving Him....not an organization of men...that is sometimes....twisted, selfish, and perverts good to promote person gain.

and on that day...the day that really matters...it will be He and He alone who grants you your reward. God bless.

Thanks edjen01, and you of course are quite correct about this.

[mizpeh]

Originally Posted by deltaguitar

can I be a partialCalvinist? I am out of here. Talk with you guys tomorrow.

Okay, you can be the "P" in TULIP but that's it!!!!!

[pelathais]

Originally Posted by mizpeh

Okay, you can be the "P" in TULIP but that's it!!!!!

The "P" of TULIP is The Perseverence of the Saints! One of my favorites!

[mizpeh]

Originally Posted by pelathais

The "P" of TULIP is The Perseverence of the Saints! One of my favorites!

[ManOfWord]

Originally Posted by Ferd

well, we wouldnt have to if someone didnt feel it necessary to take issue with the UPCI for declariing "This is who we are"....

What irritates me is that it is an issue. folk dont like the Apostolic Identity as reflected by the UPCI, then fine, do your own deal. But do we have to stop down and bash the UPCI every time some preacher in the organization decides to suggest that the UPCI still olds to some views others have let go of (or never held)?

So, we can't discuss an issue? Or is it that we can't discuss a UPCI issue?
I really don't see what the problem is, honestly.

Originally Posted by Justin

It seems that there is way too much emphasis on making oneself holy on the outside. (See Gal. 3)

I think so.



I have been young and now I am older. I have the distinct opportunity of viewing this issue (outward holiness) from both sides now. I was pretty much a con to ultra con and now I would be considered liberal to most especially the ultra cons who would consider me backslidden. However, from my vantage point of once preaching that cutting your hair (ladies) was a sin, to now not even mentioning it, I can tell you from my experience that that folks in the church I pastor are far more spiritual than most of the folks I pastored as a Con, and I DO preach holiness.

I think this is partly due to the fact that without the emphasis on the outward, they spend more time on the "weightier matters of the law" which have to do with how they live out the scriptures instead of how they look. I can't tell you the last time in 10yrs I have had to deal with gossiping or backbiting. I can't tell you the last time I had to deal with politics on our ministerial team. I can't tell you the last time I had to beg for people to tithe.

I'm certainly not trying to make anyone like me/us, but I am telling you all that the "inevitable" slippery slope is NOT inevitable. I am still married to my first wife and have not committed adultery. We don't get drunk and we don't cuss! We don't cheat on our taxes and have nothing to hide. I don't have to hide our TV and I don't have to lie signing an AS. All the "doom and gloom" that everyone said would happen if we left the "Mother Ship" has not happened.

But now, looking on from the outside, it just seems to me like the UPCI, for the past 11 or 12 years that I have been out of it is STILL dealing with the same issues. There are still splits and there are still those who are trying to make the organization purer and purer and wondering why those who don't agree with the AOF stay in it. Nothing changes. It's still the same thing as it was in the 70's when I got saved. The bickering and political in-fighting has never waned and IMO, has only increased. It seems that no matter who leaves, it's still not enough. I don't know what else they can do to purge the ranks except go back to the tolerant days before the merger.

I'm sad to say it, but I really don't think, based upon it's history, that it will ever change unless they can make everyone think alike and that's not likely to happen. It is sad that these things, like the zany, wacky "magic hair" doctrine, continue to be in the spotlight and not simply reaching the lost and preaching the cross.

But, hey....I'm "backslidden" so what do I know?

[TRFrance]

Originally Posted by edjen01

are you meaning like Luther and the Reformation?

Do you actually think the UPCI has made a big enough impact to make an historical difference?

Well, it's become the dominant, and most influential OP organization... to the extent that many people when they think of Oneness Pentecostal,they think of the UPC.

Luther's actions may have been historically significant, but in the end he was still a purveryor of corrupt doctrine. He simply traded one error for a lesser error --but an error nonetheless. I don't see him as a man who won souls into God's kingdom. I'm actually not as impressed with him as some seem to be.

Originally Posted by Innocuous

I do believe that at one time the UPC, and others, had a vision and a mission to do something God wanted them to do. But I think they've strayed off that path and recent leadership has only exacerbated that trend.

The UPC has won more souls into the Kingdom than any other Apostolic organization over the past several decades, which is the primary thing "God wanted them to do". When have they stopped doing that? From what I can see, they still have more missionary outreaches to more countries worldwide than any other org.

Originally Posted by Innocuous

God has certainly snuffed out his Spirit from orgs and left movements. Men keep them going and, but for the most part God isn't there any longer. This is nothing new, the OT is full of this sort of thing.

If you think the Spirit of God has left, or is leaving, the organization as a whole, you have a very short-sighted view of things.

Beyond the denominational politics and various issues that are overhyped on forums like this, souls are still being saved, churches still being planted, and God is using folks in the UPCI and other organizations. I think your perception of this is a lot gloomier than what the reality is -- and that applies to quite a few members here also.

[*AQuietPlace*]

Originally Posted by TRFrance

If someone is looking for an interpretation that's more suitable to them convenient doctrine, they'll always be able to find it. .

That happens on both sides of the aisle.

[mizpeh]

Originally Posted by ManOfWord

I'm sad to say it, but I really don't think, based upon it's history, that it will ever change unless they can make everyone think alike and that's not likely to happen. It is sad that these things, like the zany, wacky "magic hair" doctrine, continue to be in the spotlight and not simply reaching the lost and preaching the cross.

Magic hair is NOT a huge teaching. It may be out there but not a spotlight in my church. Never heard of it except on AFF. The focus is reaching the lost, revival, and the cross.

[Innocuous]

Originally Posted by TRFrance

Well, it's become the dominant, and most influential OP organization... to the extent that many people when they think of Oneness Pentecostal,they think of the UPC.

Dominant...that's an interesting choice of word. Even so, the UPC has barely made a blip on the radar of contemporary Christendom. Even among Pentecostals they're not all that widely known, not as much as they'd like to think. AG people pretty much know the UPC (and not fondly most often), but even other Pentecostals, more often than not in my experience, don't have a clue about the UPC. If they do they don't think very highly of the UPC for the most part. UPC to them normally means "United Pharisee Church". I had dinner a few weeks ago with a Regional Superintendent of an old Pentecostal denomination rooted in the Mid-West who had never heard of the UPC. In large part the UPC is a legend in it's own mind. Granted, my experience is limited, but I have yet to meet an evangelical who, if they know the UPC, had a positive impression of it. That's not good.

Originally Posted by TRFrance

The UPC has won more souls into the Kingdom than any other Apostolic organization over the past several decades, which is the primary thing "God wanted them to do". When have they stopped doing that? From what I can see, they still have more missionary outreaches to more countries worldwide than any other org.

Really? Look again.

As for my comments about mission...these are comments made to me recently by a senior leader in the UPC, one who is btw intimately familiar with the FMD. I happen to think he's right. And no, he's not some overly emotional extremist who shoots off at the lip. This man has a reputation for being tight lipped, unemotional, measured, and a 'company man' for several decades. In forty years I've never heard him say anything negative about the UPC until now. If he feels this and feels compelled to say it then I listen. He says he's never seen the morale so low and vision so blurred and confused in his entire life in the UPC, and he's third generation UPC minister. His grandfather used to help the pioneers like Ewart and others before Oneness was a movement.

Originally Posted by TRFrance

If you think the Spirit of God has left, or is leaving, the organization as a whole, you have a very short-sighted view of things.

I didn't say that. Read my comments again. I said they're in danger of that. It's happened to other orgs, and can happen to the UPC.